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Old 07-03-2013, 11:39 AM
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Thumbs down What would happen if...

Watching the news this week in Egypt I found myself wondering what would happen if something like this were to happen here in the United States. What would happen if a million people showed up to surround the White House to protest our government? What would the response be? Would our military back the people? Or, would our military stop the protest under orders of the presidency? What do you think would happen?

Live Updates: 'Military Coup Under Way,' Says Morsi Spokesman
http://liveblog.abcnews.go.com/Event..._in_48_Hours_2
 
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Old 07-03-2013, 11:47 AM
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What do you mean by "back" the people? Are you suggesting the military might consider removing the elected leader of the nation if 1/300th of the population showed up to demand it? Probably not--there have been other marches before that ended up in various levels of violence, and in all cases the military ended up following the demands of their boss. Granted, the National Guard doesn't always, like at the Ole Miss riots, but when they mobilized the Big Red One against "The People," it quieted the protest and allowed the first black guy to actually attend classes at Ole Miss.
 
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Old 07-03-2013, 11:53 AM
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Only the Whitehouse?

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Originally Posted by Cricket View Post
Watching the news this week in Egypt I found myself wondering what would happen if something like this were to happen here in the United States. What would happen if a million people showed up to surround the White House to protest our government? What would the response be? Would our military back the people? Or, would our military stop the protest under orders of the presidency? What do you think would happen?

Live Updates: 'Military Coup Under Way,' Says Morsi Spokesman
http://liveblog.abcnews.go.com/Event..._in_48_Hours_2
The Whitehouse only, why not the Capitol building?
 
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Old 07-03-2013, 12:06 PM
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I think if something happen here, President Obama will use the Martial Law to stop any mass protest, now I don't know what would be the next step, if it was the case.
 
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Old 07-03-2013, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Brave7 View Post
I think if something happen here, President Obama will use the Martial Law to stop any mass protest, now I don't know what would be the next step, if it was the case.
I somehow image that the 7 million rounds of stockpiled ammo would come into play.
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Old 07-03-2013, 12:39 PM
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Um, you guys need to know that a majority of the bills that restrict free speech in this country have come from the House and Senate.

Granted that there are some crappy things coming out of the White House as well.
 
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Old 07-03-2013, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by ScriptMan View Post
I somehow image that the 7 million rounds of stockpiled ammo would come into play.
And the Katrina firearms confiscation style...

Quote:
Originally Posted by psylinx View Post
Um, you guys need to know that a majority of the bills that restrict free speech in this country have come from the House and Senate.

Granted that there are some crappy things coming out of the White House as well.
Not only free speech, all Bills of Rights as well, and if you take a closer look, they are all linked each others.
 
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Old 07-03-2013, 01:43 PM
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WOW!

Egyptian military ousts Morsi, suspends constitution...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...a55_story.html
 
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Old 07-03-2013, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Cricket View Post
WOW!

Egyptian military ousts Morsi, suspends constitution...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...a55_story.html
Goodness that is getting real serious real quickly.
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Old 07-03-2013, 02:26 PM
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Goodness that is getting real serious real quickly.
The fact the the Coptic pope, the head Imam and chief opposition back the military decision is...interesting.

There is supposedly a petition with 22 million signatures against Morsi. The opposition claims that the Muslim Brotherhood and Morsi did not adhere to the spirit of the constitution.
The military is calling for a secular, technocratic government.

Members of the opposition claim that the Muslim Brotherhood hijacked the system even though Morsi got a slim majority vote.

Morsi supporters claim this is an illegitimate coup and that civil liberties are being compromised.

A real mess!
 
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Old 07-03-2013, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by psylinx View Post
The fact the the Coptic pope, the head Imam and chief opposition back the military decision is...interesting.

There is supposedly a petition with 22 million signatures against Morsi. The opposition claims that the Muslim Brotherhood and Morsi did not adhere to the spirit of the constitution.
The military is calling for a secular, technocratic government.

Members of the opposition claim that the Muslim Brotherhood hijacked the system even though Morsi got a slim majority vote.

Morsi supporters claim this is an illegitimate coup and that civil liberties are being compromised.

A real mess!
I wouldn't be surprise that Egypt is going to live the worse chaos ever, because I don't think the Muslim Brotherhood are going to let others in power without any fights.

Wait a few months and we will see.
 
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Old 07-03-2013, 04:40 PM
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Keep in mind that all of us in the military have sworn to defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic. As a military officer, my duty would've been to put down an armed insurrection against the American government whether it was Reagan, Carter, Bush, or Obama in the Presidency, and whether I agreed with the President or not.

Also keep in mind that, right wing flapping jaws to the contrary, Obama has so far done nothing that directly violates the U.S. Constitution, nor, for that matter, did Bush, no matter how much garbage the left wing flapping jaws repeated. If either President had suspended the power of the Supreme Court as Morsi did, he would have legitimately been violating the law of the land and thus impeachable, and at that point the military response is more of a grey area.
 
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Old 07-03-2013, 04:46 PM
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Just watched more about this on the news. I am not familiar with their constitution, here in the US I would consider it an illegal action by the military.

But, stephen has a valid point. If the Congress failed to take action if and when the president violated the law, the last recourse might be the military.
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Old 07-03-2013, 04:54 PM
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FWIW I was not specifically referring to any of our presidents now or in the past. It was actually a recent protest in Austin that got me thinking about this so when I saw the situation growing in the news (regarding Egypt) it got me to wondering what would happen in a situation like that if it were here in the United States.

Of course for that to happen here, enough Americans would have to care enough to stand up to protest. [smirk] Even the protests we saw in the 60s wouldn't be nearly as like to happen in the current day here in the states. Of course I could be completely wrong about that too.

I seriously need for my ankle to heal soon so I have less time to think. LOL
 
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Old 07-03-2013, 05:54 PM
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Interesting thought Cricket and hypothetically speaking, there must be a way as every system has its breaking point.

If the government managed to violate some laws so badly and it was found out, and if all the religious faiths as well as a major portion of the people got behind it, then maybe it would rock the boat enough.

The thing is, if there are major protests and they are non-violent, then the moment a government uses forces and turns on the people to the point of shooting at them, then basically that system has failed and they have ousted themselves.

The problem is that today, we no longer know what is real or not. Let's say that there was a peaceful protest, then who is to say that governments wouldn't plant people within those protests so as to cause trouble and give governments the ammunition they need so as to use violent force.
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Old 07-03-2013, 09:12 PM
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Hey Stephen,

Quote:
Keep in mind that all of us in the military have sworn to defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic. As a military officer, my duty would've been to put down an armed insurrection against the American government
This gave me pause, I couldn't help but wonder if you make too close a connection between the Constitution, a document written largely to protect the citizens against a tendency towards tyranny by all governments over time, and the government itself.

Quote:
If either President had suspended the power of the Supreme Court as Morsi did, he would have legitimately been violating the law of the land and thus impeachable, and at that point the military response is more of a grey area.
This eases my mind a bit. It at least suggests to me that you make some sort of distinction between the government and the Constitution. Also gives me a sense that you accept that the possibility exists that the government might willfully violate it to the gross detriment of the American people and do so to the extant that your duty to the Constitution and people of the United States would supersede your duty to the government.

Quote:
Also keep in mind that, right wing flapping jaws to the contrary, Obama has so far done nothing that directly violates the U.S. Constitution, nor, for that matter, did Bush, no matter how much garbage the left wing flapping jaws repeated
Actually I think the government, as whole, violates the constitution more often than many people think. If it didn't there wouldn't be any cases before the supreme court.

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The complex role of the Supreme Court in this system derives from its authority to invalidate legislation or executive actions which, in the Court's considered judgment, conflict with the Constitution.
That quote is taken from the Supreme Courts Site:

http://www.supremecourt.gov/about/constitutional.aspx

The very creation of the Supreme Court suggests that the framers of the Constitution foresaw, or at least allowed for the idea, that some of the "enemies" of the Constitution would be members of the Government. Now clearly there are decent well meaning people that disagree over the interpretation of the Constitution and in most cases where governing bodies have unwittingly overstepped it's not in the interest of the American people as a whole to engage in an armed revolt but rather to await judicial review by the Supreme Court, (or a lesser court), and/or to exert some other sort of pressure short of violence.

However, I don't think the scenarios where the cost to the American people, as a whole, of awaiting judicial review would be too high or a failure of the courts to uphold the Constitution are as far fetched or as unlikely as they may once have been. It's something for members of the military and law enforcement to consider, I don't envy them their position. Certainly in the case of law enforcement officers, I don't think it's a matter of whether or not they'll be asked to enforce unconstitutional laws, they will be/are being/have been asked to, rather in practical terms the question is how high will the stakes have to be and how obvious will the violation of the Constitution have to be before they refuse to enforce unconstitutional laws/orders.


But, having said all that, I think there is an important point to make. In the current environment, a lot of failures to uphold the constitution by other people are likely to have to had to occur before any member of the military or law enforcement is faced with a real world situation like this.

As a case in point, In Illinois there is a law against taking photos or videos of police officers. It's considered a felony, a felony of the same stature as rape and subject to the same punishments. The law has been on the books for about 9 years as I recall. Last time I checked no one had ever been formally charged under this statute. Why? Common thinking has it that it's because prosecutors know that it's extremely unlikely that it would pass judicial review as written on constitutional grounds. So they use it as a club to threaten and beat people, "informally". To my mind, this is clearly a willful violation of the Constitution by government officials both as individuals and institutionally.

That this statute exists at all is a failure on the part of the legislature. That it continues to exist is an indictment against the citizens of Illinois. Whether acknowledged or not, in addition to being an embarrassment, its a failure on the part of the legislature and people of Illinois to do their duty to uphold the Constitution. Through this failure we place police officers in a situation they shouldn't have to be in.

When people choose to become a police officer or a member of the military they accept a certain kind of burden. You can't really remove that burden from them. However, I think it's every Americans duty to make the burden we place on law enforcement and the military as light as possible. We, as civilians, need to understand that we have our own burdens, responsibilities and duties.

We still live in a country where the kind of thing we see going on in Egypt right now isn't necessary to effect real change. If we ever find ourselves in a position where it is necessary; well, that will be our own fault.

Billy
 
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Old 07-04-2013, 06:10 AM
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Originally Posted by stephen.king View Post
Also keep in mind that, right wing flapping jaws to the contrary, Obama has so far done nothing that directly violates the U.S. Constitution, nor, for that matter, did Bush, no matter how much garbage the left wing flapping jaws repeated.
If one pays any attention to the news at all, this statement is very easily demonstrably false, unless your requirement is that Obama be working for the NSA and actually reading the email of others himself or that he's actually the one who pushed the fire button on the drone missles that killed Anwar al-Aulaqi and his son.
There have been numerous examples of violations of the constitution, carried out by the government of the day, during Obama, Bush and Clinton and the President is ultimately responsible.

On the topic of Egypt, we're not talking about a million protesters, here. Some estimates put the total at anywhere between 14 million and 30 million. A wide range, I know, but it certainly wasn't only a million.
And they don't have 330 million people, either. They have 83 million.
 
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Old 07-04-2013, 10:19 AM
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I wonder if the US will manage to stay out of this?
http://abcnews.go.com/International/...6#.UdWgcfmkqKE
 
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Old 07-04-2013, 10:23 AM
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Presidents can simply allow things to happen....
as if they didn't have a tremendous intelligence network..(internally)...

The term is plausible deniability .......
(and wiping off the finger prints)...
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Old 07-04-2013, 10:26 AM
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Only time will tell the final tale, of course, but it's quite possible that the main stream media is framing these events as a "crisis" where no actual crisis exists.
The main stream media can no longer be trusted.
The coming days and weeks should illuminate the situation.
Hopefully, an election will be called very shortly so that the people can determine their own path.
 
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