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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 03-11-2014, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by TechWizard View Post
For whatever reason Ukraine nor Georgia were ever made NATO members, had they been this would be an entirely different incident, and my guess is Putin would have never done it as all of the other NATO members would have been obligated to react. As it stands now there is no more obligations to anyone other than Saber Rattling....

As to the protecting people who want to be part of Russia. I may be wrong but when you have a Parliament that is surrounded by armed Russian invading troops the vote to become part of Russia maybe slightly biased.

As to the people that live in Crimea, well from what I understand they are not unlike most other countries where half the population things one way and the other half thinks another. To lump everyone together or stereotype a people by saying they all want to be part of Russia I think is doing a injustice to the actual situation.

This base of the whole incident is that Russia decided to side with the ousted running president and call the uprising against whatever the citizens were so upset about as a coup and are using the excuse of backing who they see as the valid president as the excuse to get their foot in the door.
You're making some assumptions and mischaracterizing what is taking place over there.
1. Russia sent in troops to protect it's military bases there, just as the US would send troops to a Japanese military base if it thought the US servicemen were in any danger. They haven't "surrounded Parliament" as you put it.
2. That region is made up of many Russians who see themselves becoming second class citizens in the Ukraine if the US and western governments get their way and install the puppet government that they want in the Ukraine. Of course they want out. I would too. Things like this are bound to happen when something like the USSR breaks up in to smaller pieces. Some people find themselves in one of the broken pieces but want to remain part of the larger piece.
3. Russia gave shelter to the outgoing Ukrainian President because he showed up on their doorstep. Putin has actually done almost everything he can to distance himself from the outgoing President because Putin knows he won't return to power and the people don't want him. Putin has even said that he granted asylum because the guy was going to die without it.
4. We're not hearing the whole story on any of this. It would be foolish to think we've got the answers for all the questions here. This whole situation is much bigger than it even seems. It encpompasses Syria, Iran, China as well. What happened in Syria, what will happen in Syria, what happened in the Ukraine and what is happening in Venezuela are all connected. If you look at Syria, Ukraine, Venezuela like a disease, many of the symptoms are the same and some familiar Western and Eastern governments lurking in the shadows behind it all.
Ukraine is not an island. Big picture thinking applies here.
 
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 03-11-2014, 10:15 AM
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Well said, and I totally agree with you Zap. We should attack Russia...


....



On a serious note, our media is only conveying one side of the story and what it wants us to know/think.

Russia hasn't done anything we wouldn't do if we were in the same situation.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 03-12-2014, 08:48 AM
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http://beforeitsnews.com/politics/20...o-2604324.html

The Fed is storing Ukraine's gold reserves now, for "humanitarian reasons", of course.
Flown from the Ukraine to the US under cover of darkness and secrecy.

Unrelated: Germany has asked the Fed for their gold back (the Fed was storing it for "safe keeping"). The Fed has told Germany that they can have it back, but it will take 7 YEARS! 7 YEARS!!!
Oh. And Germany is not permitted to audit or even see their gold in the meantime.

But, I'm sure Ukraine's gold will be totally safe. LOL!
 
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 03-12-2014, 04:38 PM
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Let's connect some dots...

[YT]fWkfpGCAAuw[/YT]
 
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Old 03-13-2014, 06:54 PM
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Washington politicians should spend more time here in this forum, they might learn something.

I just have to wonder why in the entire country there isn't a single expert on the Ukraine that some administration staffer couldn't have called to get more information on the culture and the nature of the situation before the President weighed in and started "speaking strongly".

Also, having been to places that receive aid. Aid rarely gets to the people it targets. The tax money more likely ends up in some official's pocket.

You see American aid bags of grain for sale in the marketplaces.

China doesn't give foreign aid. They enter third world countries, improve infrastructure then open markets for their cheapest goods.

American just seem to slide the money across the table and just hope everyone "behaves".

Regarding wars and Washington, maybe we should require politicians to serve a tour of duty before they can run for office.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 03-14-2014, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by txshellie View Post
China doesn't give foreign aid. They enter third world countries, improve infrastructure then open markets for their cheapest goods.
And this is what has been making China a very strong nation over the years.

A country falls into a crisis situation, we the (great Western nations) offer to help but have so much red tape and hoops for people to jump through. China goes along, forgets all about red tape (I guess that could be a bad thing also) and helps them right away.

That said, the president and his mob really should know when to open their mouth. Russia isn't actually doing anything wrong per say and it would be wiser for him to keep Russia on side, than making the US look like some hypocrite in mouthing off against them. The Russians are probably thinking that we have to be joking as we go wading in just about everywhere around the world.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 03-14-2014, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by txshellie View Post
Washington politicians should spend more time here in this forum, they might learn something.

I just have to wonder why in the entire country there isn't a single expert on the Ukraine that some administration staffer couldn't have called to get more information on the culture and the nature of the situation before the President weighed in and started "speaking strongly".
That's assuming that they want the situation to improve. Their actions demonstrate otherwise.
The mistake here is in thinking that the politicians are just blundering their way through this and when the situation inches closer to war, that it was an unintended mistake someone made that brought us closer.
War is the goal. But it has to look like it was provoked or started by Russia so we can enjoy popular support at home and abroad for the war that will follow.
We're playing a very dangerous game with Russia and Putin is no idiot.
The billions we poured into Ukraine to destabilize their government was not an accident or blunder. It's the same technique used over and over again in other countries. The politicians knew this before committing those dollars.
There are grumblings in Russia about countering a western backed set of sanctions against Russia with a systematic crashing of the US dollar by Russia.
They certainly have the ability and if their ally (China) decides its more advantageous for them to take over the world reserve currency status than it is to recoup the almost 4 trillion dollars the US owes China, we're toast.
In the meantime, it won't be John Kerry's kids or Obama's kids that go to fight in this war they're itching for, it will be yours and mine.
 
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Old 03-14-2014, 11:37 AM
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On a slight sidenote, I have seen some articles about how some Ukrainians approve Russia's 'takeover'. However, I have a friend who has grandparents living in the country. There is television but it's almost like North Korea; Russia is only showing what they want the Ukrainians to believe. This is happening towards the rural areas.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 03-14-2014, 01:01 PM
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You're making some assumptions and mischaracterizing what is taking place over there.
1. Russia sent in troops to protect it's military bases there, just as the US would send troops to a Japanese military base if it thought the US servicemen were in any danger. They haven't "surrounded Parliament" as you put it.
2. That region is made up of many Russians who see themselves becoming second class citizens in the Ukraine if the US and western governments get their way and install the puppet government that they want in the Ukraine. Of course they want out. I would too. Things like this are bound to happen when something like the USSR breaks up in to smaller pieces. Some people find themselves in one of the broken pieces but want to remain part of the larger piece.
3. Russia gave shelter to the outgoing Ukrainian President because he showed up on their doorstep. Putin has actually done almost everything he can to distance himself from the outgoing President because Putin knows he won't return to power and the people don't want him. Putin has even said that he granted asylum because the guy was going to die without it.
4. We're not hearing the whole story on any of this. It would be foolish to think we've got the answers for all the questions here. This whole situation is much bigger than it even seems. It encpompasses Syria, Iran, China as well. What happened in Syria, what will happen in Syria, what happened in the Ukraine and what is happening in Venezuela are all connected. If you look at Syria, Ukraine, Venezuela like a disease, many of the symptoms are the same and some familiar Western and Eastern governments lurking in the shadows behind it all.
Ukraine is not an island. Big picture thinking applies here.
I find it funny that in one breath you freely tell me that I am making assumptions then turn around and do the same using your assumptions to point out that I am wrong

When it really comes down to this situation if we want to lack bias from all views then the lack of our actually being there and witnessing everything from the beginning first hand then we have nothing we can actually say that is anything but conjecture. That includes your view and mine
 
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 03-14-2014, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by TechWizard View Post
I find it funny that in one breath you freely tell me that I am making assumptions then turn around and do the same using your assumptions to point out that I am wrong

When it really comes down to this situation if we want to lack bias from all views then the lack of our actually being there and witnessing everything from the beginning first hand then we have nothing we can actually say that is anything but conjecture. That includes your view and mine
I wasn't making assumptions, whereas some of yours led you to some incorrect statements.
That might be the cause of you finding it funny.

I've been paying attention to what western media is reporting AND what their media is reporting. I am not on the ground in Ukraine, but I do know a lot more about the situation, given that we have family over in those parts.
There are a significant number of Russians in the Crimea that do not want the honour of becoming second class citizens in their home. Stating that their Parliament was surrounded by Russians was just flat out wrong. You made it seem as thought they were voting to stay with Russia because they were under duress by the Russian military, which is not at all the case.
The West, as we did such a great job of aligning ourselves with Al Qaida terrorist forces in Syria because it was politically expedient, has gone and done it again in Ukraine. But only this time, it is neo-Nazi socialists we have given our support to. This is the group that is receiving support from Kerry, Obama. Again, because it is politically expedient for us.
These socialist nazis consider Russians to be expendable and don't want them in Ukraine.
That's probably got more to do with the Russians wanting to align with Russia than the Russian military which hasn't surrounded their Parliament.
Your post attempted to make it look like Russia is the bad guy and we're the good guys. The reality of the situation is very different. No assumptions there, just looking at facts.
And for those who think the Crimea was invaded by Russia, that's just what the puppet masters want people to believe. The truth is that Russia has a long standing agreement with the Ukraine which allows for them to move in as they did for (among other reasons) exactly the reason that they did.
So there was nothing out of the ordinary with Putin's actions there.

Last edited by Zap; 03-14-2014 at 03:19 PM.
 
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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 03-14-2014, 04:25 PM
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There are a significant number of Russians in the Crimea that do not want the honour of becoming second class citizens in their home.
I believe I commented on the fact that there was a 50/50 type of split for those that wanted to be returned to Russian control and those that didn't. Does this not qualify as significant number that do?

Quote:
Stating that their Parliament was surrounded by Russians was just flat out wrong.
Surrounded or simply having a number of armed troops present when the vote was made. Do you think this won't influence or bias some in their vote?

Please show the reports of humanitarian need, those being abused, starved, killed etc after the President was ousted from power.

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/1...d-hide-he-fled

http://www.haaretz.com/news/world/1.576017

I can't find any making that statement...
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 03-15-2014, 09:50 AM
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Surrounded or simply having a number of armed troops present when the vote was made. Do you think this won't influence or bias some in their vote?
You're not listening.
The group that the US government has been funding to destabilize the Ukrainian government is a Neo-Nazi socialist group that wants all Russians removed from Ukraine, by force if needed. They actually consider Rusians to be beneath themselves.
Quit regurgitating western propaganda and use your critical thinking skills for just a second.
What do you think is more likely? Russians in Crimea want to be part of Russia because of some coercion that you can not link to proof of because it didn't happen? Or they want to be part of Russia because they know what the new unelected Neo-Nazis have planned for them?
You're presupposing the big bad Russians moved into Crimea to enforce their will on other Russians that are at odds with the new Ukrainian leaders and many fear for their lives because of it?
That doesn't make even a tiny bit of logical sense. Think it through.

And again, the Rusians have an agreement, a long standing one, that allows for them to occupy that territory. They have bases there.
The US has a few (over 1000) military bases in all parts of the world. Are you really going to argue that it's ok for the US to move troops amongst its bases, in accordance with established agreements, but it's somehow NOT ok for Russia to do the exact same thing?


Quote:
Please show the reports of humanitarian need, those being abused, starved, killed etc after the President was ousted from power.

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/1...d-hide-he-fled

http://www.haaretz.com/news/world/1.576017

I can't find any making that statement...
They haven't gotten started yet. Too many eyes on them right now.
But your links to show how bad the outgoing leader was have absolutely no bearing on the ongoing safety concerns of current Russians living in the Ukraine. The old guy was a bad dude. Completely corrupt.
Do you think it somehow logically follows that the Russians in Ukraine are going to be well treated by the new leaders? One has absolutely nothing to do with the other.

Revisit the video link I posted above if you want to know what the new government has in store for ethnic Russians living in the Ukraine. The new government was responsible for the sniper attacks on protesters AND riot police. And they have threatened ethnic Russians in the country for a long time now.

If you want to believe the propaganda your government is feeding you without looking into the facts of the situation, that is your prerogative.
But it's pretty funny to suggest that the Russians influenced the vote to join Russia when no coercion is necessary when you realize the truth of the matter.
It's an extremely poorly constructed western lie that few people other than yourself will believe when looking at the facts.
They want out because they know they will be in danger. They've already been told this.
 
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 03-15-2014, 10:30 AM
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I will concede that Russia has the right to protect their bases. I will not concede that they have the right to go beyond that.

My thought process is not geared around the propaganda or any other news that is currently being spewed from one source or another.

My thought process is, and always has been since his insertion into the position that Putin has one main idea in mind. That is to re-institute the ways of old Russia. His KGB days have never left him. The ideas of the Cold War Era have never left him.

While there may or may not be existing reason for Crimea to want Russian soldiers the back truth is that Putin will take any opportunity to reunite that which used to be...especially if left unchecked.

No, war should not be pursued but free to do what you want to do should not be the atmosphere either...it is entirely possible that publicly there is sabre rattling and behind the scenes there is negotiation and possibly even support if it stops at a particular point from a lot of governments even ours.

This is not an opportunity to U.S. bash either which you were quick to do. I say again, left unchecked there is no doubt that Russia would not stop at simply protecting their bases. If and I say if there were armed troops present inside the chamber while the parliament was voting on anything Russia related I still stand that it is wrong. Whether it influenced/biased the vote is unknown but in the very least lends to that perception.

I am also confused somewhat by your support for a Russian proactive action when you are so quick to rebel against any other type of proactive action by any other country for any reason.
 
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 03-15-2014, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by TechWizard View Post
I will concede that Russia has the right to protect their bases. I will not concede that they have the right to go beyond that.
They haven't. So far, all they've done in the Crimea is keep the peace.

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Originally Posted by TechWizard View Post
My thought process is not geared around the propaganda or any other news that is currently being spewed from one source or another.
You are quick to parrot western propaganda, while also quick to dismiss eastern propaganda.
Both sides are lying, here. But if I were to choose which version of the propaganda is closer to the truth, it would be Putin's version of events.
Firstly, I see a lot less noise coming from him.
Secondly, I see the west using the same old tricks they tried to use in Syria and the same old tricks they used in Libya, Iraq, etc.

Again, I don't think you can believe either side, but the credibility of the west takes a hit when they are so very far from the truth it's plainly obvious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TechWizard View Post
My thought process is, and always has been since his insertion into the position that Putin has one main idea in mind. That is to re-institute the ways of old Russia. His KGB days have never left him. The ideas of the Cold War Era have never left him.
These are your feelings, but I suspect this is a BIAS on your part that you need to address. He's actually shown very little of this side that you seem to think he's showing. And, he's actually a pretty forward looking person, able to roll with the punches thrown his way so far and he even stopped the US war machine in Syria temporarily by cutting through the US government rhetoric and getting the world to see the truth. You may not like him for that, but that doesn't mean he's up to his old KGB ways. Quite the opposite.
The US was seeking international support for a war in Syria.
Putin was seeking international support for calm and reason and waiting until all the facts were in before rushing to judgement.
Why do you think Putin was so successful in halting the US war machine there?
He enjoys international support where we don't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TechWizard View Post
While there may or may not be existing reason for Crimea to want Russian soldiers the back truth is that Putin will take any opportunity to reunite that which used to be...especially if left unchecked.
Completely unsubstantiated conjecture on your part.
Let's stick to what has actually happened.
And there is reason for Russian soldiers to be in the Crimea. It's (AGAIN) part of their very long standing agreement with Ukraine.
Nothing out of the ordinary there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TechWizard View Post
No, war should not be pursued but free to do what you want to do should not be the atmosphere either...it is entirely possible that publicly there is sabre rattling and behind the scenes there is negotiation and possibly even support if it stops at a particular point from a lot of governments even ours.
"Free to do what you want"??? Again, conjecture on your part and I think coloured by your distaste for Putin.
Let's stick to the facts.

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Originally Posted by TechWizard View Post
This is not an opportunity to U.S. bash either which you were quick to do. I say again, left unchecked there is no doubt that Russia would not stop at simply protecting their bases. If and I say if there were armed troops present inside the chamber while the parliament was voting on anything Russia related I still stand that it is wrong. Whether it influenced/biased the vote is unknown but in the very least lends to that perception.
I bash the US government because they so very much deserve it right now.
And, if you're going to be honest about it, I am also referring to Western governments and "the west", meaning that the US aren't the only country to take a hit, here.
Putin has done nothing wrong.
The US is trying to start a war over this when they have no right, nor moral authority to do so.
So, yeah, I'm going to bash them for it.
But then again, I'm not affected by their propaganda as you seem to be.
When Putin does something wrong in Ukraine, then I'll say it.
But so far, it's the US (and Canada) that is backing Neo-Nazis there.
It's the US that is threatening sanctions (an act of war) for no good reason whatsoever.
It's the US that has poured billions of dollars into destabilizing Ukraine to arrive at this point in history.
It's the US that seems to be pressing for more conflict and less discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TechWizard View Post
I am also confused somewhat by your support for a Russian proactive action when you are so quick to rebel against any other type of proactive action by any other country for any reason.
You are confused because you are wrong. Russia is well within their rights to move into the Crimea as they have. Nothing else has happened.
Putting aside your obvious BIAS against Russia and willingness to believe US propaganda for a second...
What (specifically) did Putin do wrong by his movement of troops into the Crimea in accordance with already established agreements in place?
What actions of his should we be pointing out as morally wrong?

In case you haven't been paying attention, it's the US that has invaded country after country (Afghanistan, Pakistan, Libya, Iraq) and working towards destabilizing other countries (Yemen, Iran, Ukraine, Venezuela) and drone bombing innocent civilians in other countries (Yemen, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq).
Who has Russia invaded? Who has Russia drone bombed?
How much more of this nonsense is the rest of the world supposed to endure before they are allowed to call the US government out on their reckless ways? How is Russia the bad guy here?
If anything, Putin and Russia need to be criticized for allowing the US to rough roughshod over the planet unchecked until last year in Syria. If Putin is to be blamed for anything, it's for staying out of the US government's way as they've committed so many of these atrocities.
When Putin finally did have enough and decided he needed to intervene, he called for peace and disarmament in Syria while the US was pushing for war and invasion.
I'm not a big fan of any government. They all lie and steal and murder.
But, if you're going to compare the two, it's no big mystery who the bad guys are and it ain't (at least by actions and words so far) Putin or Russia.
Check your moral compass, Dude. Seriously.
 
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Old 03-15-2014, 11:31 AM
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The posts to date are quite interesting.

IMO, the key to world peace between the more educated nations is for each to suspect the sovereign status of the others. Along those lines I don't think Russia is doing anything the US would not be doing if Mexico or Canada were the Ukraine in this situation. That part of the world falls under their "sphere of influence" and the US has a moral obligation to respect that until such time as it is proven they have some evil intent.

The rhetoric should reflect Russia's right to stabilize the region. The rest is about the same as little cocks (roosters) crowing.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 03-15-2014, 12:35 PM
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The sad part is that if there's any peace to be made here, it's probably going to be Putin that provides it.
Our governments seem to only be interested in issuing ultimatums and threats.
When John Kerry issues a threat to get out of Crimea (a place where Putin has every right to be) by Monday or face sanctions, it's pretty clear he's not interested is conflict resolution, but rather conflict escalation.
We used to be the good guys.
 
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Old 03-15-2014, 01:29 PM
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Quote:
You are confused because you are wrong. Russia is well within their rights to move into the Crimea as they have. Nothing else has happened.
Putting aside your obvious BIAS against Russia and willingness to believe US propaganda for a second...
What (specifically) did Putin do wrong by his movement of troops into the Crimea in accordance with already established agreements in place?
What actions of his should we be pointing out as morally wrong?
Correct me if I am wrong, is not Ukraine a sovereign nation? Or are they only that until another country decides arbitrarily that they are not?

Yes I hold a bias toward Russia I won't deny that, although, whether it was the U.S. going into Mexico because they were in the midst of changing their government and we decided to take over parts of it that we thought were in our and their best interest, or if the U.S. Government was overthrown and the Canadians came down to protect their interests here and decided to annex the parts that they thought were fair in doing...

It is not the fact that Russia, Poland, Great Britain, the U.S. or any other country is doing it, it is the fact they had no right to go in further than their own bases. Am I wrong, is Crimea it's own sovereign nation or are they officially part of the Ukraine nation?

If they are part of Ukraine and Governed by Ukraine then this whole incident is other nations making choices as to who they are recognizing as who controls the Government. Propaganda has little to do with it.
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Old 03-15-2014, 06:53 PM
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Correct me if I am wrong, is not Ukraine a sovereign nation? Or are they only that until another country decides arbitrarily that they are not?

Yes I hold a bias toward Russia I won't deny that, although, whether it was the U.S. going into Mexico because they were in the midst of changing their government and we decided to take over parts of it that we thought were in our and their best interest, or if the U.S. Government was overthrown and the Canadians came down to protect their interests here and decided to annex the parts that they thought were fair in doing...

It is not the fact that Russia, Poland, Great Britain, the U.S. or any other country is doing it, it is the fact they had no right to go in further than their own bases. Am I wrong, is Crimea it's own sovereign nation or are they officially part of the Ukraine nation?

If they are part of Ukraine and Governed by Ukraine then this whole incident is other nations making choices as to who they are recognizing as who controls the Government. Propaganda has little to do with it.
First of all, although it is a worthy exercise (comparing the Russia - Ukraine situation to a possible US - Canada or US - Mexico situation) to try to understand what's in play here, it would actually be much closer to reality if we were to consider the following...

Imagine for a moment that the US goes broke today.
Texas, Arizona, Florida, California and Nevada all separate from the US and become their own individual republic nation states.
We now have countries called Texas, Arizona, Florida, California, Nevada and a United States of America that is 45 states strong.
Fast forward about 15 years and there is trouble in Texas.
Texas has become bitterly divided. As with all nation breakups, many Americans decided to stay living in Texas, even though they would rather have remained as part of the USA. The only problem is that Texas now is considering the radical step of becoming part of central America as they believe their lot in life will improve greatly if they do. In the meantime, Texas has a long standing agreement with the US that states the US can have military bases in Texas and the US has the right to move troops back and forth at will. Texas is a soverign state. But they've been very friendly with the US since separating, understandably. Now, let's further screw the situation up with the recent rise in popularity of a Neo-nazi group within Texas that wants Texas for Texans! They want ALL Americans out of Texas and they're not afraid to use violence to achieve that goal. They often threaten the use of violence and carry it out. Americans get beaten on the streets for being American. Sometimes American neighborhoods are the target of gangs of Texans who like to burn down houses and such. So, the democratically elected President of Texas is forced to flee from power under threat of death. He's a bad guy and has been stealing from his people faster than most leaders do. The new party that comes to power is the Neo-Nazi group and to make matters worse, they've been funded to the tune of billions of dollars by the Russians who call that money "Foreign Aid", as if that somehow excuses the prime purpose for the money being to destabilize Texas. Things get dicey in Texas. So, the US government decides to move some troops in to protect their assets (bases) in Texas and to help keep the peace, since that's in the best interests of the safety of the American people who still live in Texas. Meanwhile, the population of a significant portion of north Texas is filled with Americans. There are so many Americans living there, that they hold a vote and decide to remain part of the USA. Russia doesn't like this, since it's going to give them a smaller piece of the pie to carve up for themselves and place their own military bases on. They'd rather have all of Texas to place nuclear warheads on but it's looking like north Texas is slipping through their fingers as we speak. The Russians are now beating the drums of war and warning the US that they need to get out of Texas by Monday or face economic sanctions. (And, yes, they're actually serious!).

Imagine this scenario and it's a lot closer to the truth than involving Mexico or Canada. Texas was once part of the US. It's history and people are forever intertwined with the US. And, although Texas is an independent nation state, the US has obligations and expectations they just don't have with Canada or Mexico.

What does the US do with Texas? What does the US do with the Americans there?
What does the US do with the Americans who live in north Texas who want to rejoin the US as another state?
Should the US government abandon their military bases in Texas under threat of sanctions by the Russian government?
Does the Russian government have any right to tell the US to get out of Texas?
This is a close approximation of the situation we face.
 
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Old 03-15-2014, 06:58 PM
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This is the face of the new government in Ukraine...

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Old 03-15-2014, 07:24 PM
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