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  #61 (permalink)  
Old 03-25-2014, 05:46 PM
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  #62 (permalink)  
Old 03-26-2014, 04:54 AM
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@Techwizard: I agree that Russia will also feel pain if they stop all trade with the EU. But I think you grossly underestimate how much the EU relies on energy from Russia. They could eventually replace their supply, but that takes time, and lots of it. It's not something that can happen overnight. And Russia is already taking steps to increase their customer base, reducing their dependence on the EU. They are being proactive.
And if they start moving away from the US dollar in all trade with other nations, the US can kiss its global dominance goodbye. Everything the US does around the world depends on its ability to raise funds by selling bonds. No buyers = no funds = superpower status ends.
They already are working on agreements to trade amongst themselves (Brazil, Russia, India, China, South Africa) in a currency (probably the Chinese renminbi) other than the US dollar.
The writing is on the wall, Dude. It just depends on how quickly they want to move.
(And it doesn't help the case for continued US world dominance that it is China that currently holds most US debt).
Yes, I know which is why I said with the current administration the idea is scary as hell. If the situation was right as far as leadership and foreign relations it is plausible.

As things stand now there would be a major impact on both sides. I don't believe that Russia would be able to replace the 70% of GDP that currently comes from Europe in whole. They can probably replace perhaps half of that so they would experience a major hit even with the new relations/customers

If Reagan, Clinton, Bush 1 was in office I think it would be very plausible even with the strained economy, though I do not think our economies would be so strained at this point with any of these previous Presidents in office. Even the last Bush during term 1. Term 2 no...my statement wasn't a suggestion to proceed, just pointing out that it could be done under the right circumstances and likely very easily.

The Crimea situation, I understand that you have your opinion. I have mine which is correct I really can't say. I have actually pulled my opinion until I see more. There are a lot of emotions and bias from both sides at the moment so making a sound unbiased decision I think is really impossible.

There are a lot of things that sound really shall we say quirky about what Russia is doing. My experience with Russia causes a lot of hesitation in trusting their motives and claims after all Putin is old KGB. I will reserve my judgement until I see what their actions actually are, of course that makes it to late to respond if it comes to their intentions being what I initially thought they were.

As it has been stated by others, Putin is playing Chess, Obama is playing Checkers
 
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Old 03-26-2014, 05:52 AM
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If Reagan, Clinton, Bush 1 was in office I think it would be very plausible even with the strained economy, though I do not think our economies would be so strained at this point with any of these previous Presidents in office. Even the last Bush during term 1. Term 2 no...my statement wasn't a suggestion to proceed, just pointing out that it could be done under the right circumstances and likely very easily.

The Crimea situation, I understand that you have your opinion. I have mine which is correct I really can't say. I have actually pulled my opinion until I see more. There are a lot of emotions and bias from both sides at the moment so making a sound unbiased decision I think is really impossible.

There are a lot of things that sound really shall we say quirky about what Russia is doing. My experience with Russia causes a lot of hesitation in trusting their motives and claims after all Putin is old KGB. I will reserve my judgement until I see what their actions actually are, of course that makes it to late to respond if it comes to their intentions being what I initially thought they were.

As it has been stated by others, Putin is playing Chess, Obama is playing Checkers
You make it sound like this is an Obama problem. It's not. It's a US foreign policy problem that many presidents have been following.
Put in a Republican president and I don't think we'll be any better off when they still follow the same playbook.
And yes, Putin was KGB. Bush was CIA. What's your point?
You give Bush a pass because of your bias but Putin is an untrustworthy spy?
The world is not that simplistic.

I get that you're American and the normalcy bias applies here.
But if you can step outside that bias for a few minutes, it's OK to love your home country, while at the same time, admit that it's wrong in this particular case.
And my country is no exception as we've jumped on board with US foreign policy lock step for many years now.
We have no business interfering in Ukraine and when we meddle, throwing billions of dollars at groups who destabilize the government and topple it, we can't complain when the situation we created doesn't work in our favour and Putin gets more territory. We played with matches and we got burned and we rightly deserved it. Period.
I'd like to think that our dear rulers have learned their lesson and will stay out of affairs which are none of our business but I think we both know they are too stupid and too greedy to do that.
And Putin is no dummy, so it looks like we will continue to get burned.
How many times? I guess we'll have to wait and see.

He has many options at his disposal that our rulers won't see coming...

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-0...itary-exercise
 
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Old 03-26-2014, 07:17 AM
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You make it sound like this is an Obama problem. It's not. It's a US foreign policy problem that many presidents have been following.
Put in a Republican president and I don't think we'll be any better off when they still follow the same playbook.
And yes, Putin was KGB. Bush was CIA. What's your point?
You give Bush a pass because of your bias but Putin is an untrustworthy spy?
The world is not that simplistic.

I get that you're American and the normalcy bias applies here.
But if you can step outside that bias for a few minutes, it's OK to love your home country, while at the same time, admit that it's wrong in this particular case.
And my country is no exception as we've jumped on board with US foreign policy lock step for many years now.
We have no business interfering in Ukraine and when we meddle, throwing billions of dollars at groups who destabilize the government and topple it, we can't complain when the situation we created doesn't work in our favour and Putin gets more territory. We played with matches and we got burned and we rightly deserved it. Period.
I'd like to think that our dear rulers have learned their lesson and will stay out of affairs which are none of our business but I think we both know they are too stupid and too greedy to do that.
And Putin is no dummy, so it looks like we will continue to get burned.
How many times? I guess we'll have to wait and see.

He has many options at his disposal that our rulers won't see coming...

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-0...itary-exercise
First, is Obama THE problem, no but he is extremely weak on foreign policy and he has severely weakened the U.S. in multiple ways....not to mention that he does not believe in Democracy or our Constitution as it is.

Do I believe in U.S. foreign policy attempting to behind the scenes ouster sitting governments? Not always but in some cases, it depends on the situation.

Do I support the Government attempting to spread Democracy rather than allowing the growth of Totalitarian, Communist, Socialist governments? I have to say that I do. It doesn't always work out i.e. Russia which was moving toward a democratic for the people government and has for some time been moving back to the old Communist government. Iraq which is a mess, that is a different type of story with a lot of extenuating circumstances (And don't take that as an opportunity for us to discuss our different opinions on that topic again )

There is a contingency of people that believe we keep everything within our borders. That the only reason that 9/11 and other types of instances occur is due to blow back. While I concede that in many instances we are our own worst enemy staying within our borders is no longer possible in this world. Actually never was but is even less so now. Pearl Harbor, 9/11 are proof of that. In World War II we attempted to stay out of it and remain within our borders as a country, you see how well that went.

My statement about Putin and old KGB was in reference to his ideology of Old Russia and that ideology will/is influencing his goals to reclaim that which he believes in. His actions within his borders prove that much. Why would his actions outside his own borders not be influenced by that same philosophy be it openly or under the guise of helping others?
 
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  #65 (permalink)  
Old 03-26-2014, 10:02 AM
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First, is Obama THE problem, no but he is extremely weak on foreign policy and he has severely weakened the U.S. in multiple ways....not to mention that he does not believe in Democracy or our Constitution as it is.
I think we can agree that Obama is weak on foreign policy, but I contend that he is really no weaker than his predecessors. You may (and probably will ) disagree. But he is doing the same thing many presidents before him have done and that is to make enemies more than friends around the world.

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Do I believe in U.S. foreign policy attempting to behind the scenes ouster sitting governments? Not always but in some cases, it depends on the situation.

Do I support the Government attempting to spread Democracy rather than allowing the growth of Totalitarian, Communist, Socialist governments? I have to say that I do.
There you go, right there. It's not up to the US or any other nation to spread anything.
If a nation out there wants democracy and they specifically ASK for help from the US, then, by all means, provide whatever help you guys deem necessary.
But to think that the US (or any other country) has the right to impose anything (democracy, totalitarianism, fascism, whatever) on anyone else is just crazy talk.
The West has no moral authority over other nations. None. The sooner we learn that, the fewer enemies we'll have.
Seriously, you dislike Russia because you think they want to spread totalitarianism but think it's OK for the US to spread "democracy" via totalitarian means???
Think about the hypocrisy of that line of thought for a second.

And, with US marching towards totalitarianism right now, already a fascist state, how in the world can anyone claim the US is spreading democracy and freedom?
Pick up a newspaper, watch the TV. Even the fascist media, which is nothing more than a squawk box for the US administration, will demonstrate quite readily that there is very little freedom left in the USA. It's filled with stories of cops overstepping their authority, people arrested for drinking raw milk, people arrested for collecting rainwater, people getting suspended from school for wearing the American flag, kids getting tasered for protesting, people in Boston getting their houses broken into by authorities who disregard the Constitution, people on lockdown in an entire city, the NSA spying on everyone. How can the US spread freedom and democracy when it doesn't possess any? It was already lost a while ago. How can the US promote that which it doesn't appear to believe in? There's no credibility there.

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It doesn't always work out i.e. Russia which was moving toward a democratic for the people government and has for some time been moving back to the old Communist government. Iraq which is a mess, that is a different type of story with a lot of extenuating circumstances (And don't take that as an opportunity for us to discuss our different opinions on that topic again )
All the hellfire we've spread (Afghanistan, Iraq, Yemen, Somalia, Libya, Pakistan, Etc.) means that we don't get to be the good guys anymore. You may think so because you live here, but the people throughout the rest of the world aren't bent in a pro-US direction. They see our actions for what they are... terrorism.

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There is a contingency of people that believe we keep everything within our borders. That the only reason that 9/11 and other types of instances occur is due to blow back. While I concede that in many instances we are our own worst enemy staying within our borders is no longer possible in this world. Actually never was but is even less so now. Pearl Harbor, 9/11 are proof of that. In World War II we attempted to stay out of it and remain within our borders as a country, you see how well that went.
WWII was a special case. Let's not compare that to what is taking place today.
If you do, you won't like the results. WWII was about a guy who went sub-human and started invading and killing. Look around today and it is only the west, headed by the US, that is doing all the invading and killing. It's the US that needs to be stopped.
For all the rhetoric about how dangerous Iraq was and how dangerous Iran is and how dangerous Syria is, none of them have been invading country after country, have they? The US has. Do you think the world is blind to this?
I think we need to take a step back and admit that the world is not ours for the taking. We can not do what we want with it. We can not continue to invade new countries under the guise of "protecting ourselves" when none of these countries are attacking anyone, let alone us. We need to start minding our own business and start creating friendships with these countries instead of enemies.
That is the road to peace... minding our own damned business and leaving everyone else alone to do the same.

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My statement about Putin and old KGB was in reference to his ideology of Old Russia and that ideology will/is influencing his goals to reclaim that which he believes in. His actions within his borders prove that much. Why would his actions outside his own borders not be influenced by that same philosophy be it openly or under the guise of helping others?
Again, let's drop the rhetoric and stick to what has actually happened here so far.
Putin has admitted people from a part of the former Soviet Union back into Russia, only AFTER they voted overwhelmingly to do that. He didn't force anyone to vote and didn't force which way they voted. They want to be part of Russia because they don't want to be at the mercy of a Ukrainian government that wants them out of the way by any means necessary. I can't blame them for wanting the protection of Russia. You've already seen in this thread the intimidation tactics and violence these people are capable of when they don't get their way.

And, shoe on the other foot, if Mexico wanted to join the US and the US wanted them to join, who the hell is Russia to try and stand in the way of that? How ridiculous would it be if Russia started placing sanctions against the US because they admitted Mexico?
 
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  #66 (permalink)  
Old 03-27-2014, 08:14 AM
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Things like this demonstrate why the Crimea wants protection and stands with Russia...

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  #67 (permalink)  
Old 03-27-2014, 09:40 AM
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All the hellfire we've spread (Afghanistan, Iraq, Yemen, Somalia, Libya, Pakistan, Etc.) means that we don't get to be the good guys anymore. You may think so because you live here, but the people throughout the rest of the world aren't bent in a pro-US direction. They see our actions for what they are... terrorism.
Speaking of rhetoric...you're ramping it up to the level of BS on this one....

These countries invited their own hellfire, either by not abiding by peace treaties, controlling parties attacking ours, allowing us to pursue those that have declared war upon us that are taking refuge in their countries, or turning a blind eye and supporting those that attacked our country...Honestly, I do not support the way in which Afghanistan or Iraq were handled...Rather than attempting to be tactical we should have done it the way that war should be and it would have been over in less than 6 months...during a time of war, and regardless what you may want to think the war on terrorism is an actual war whether they have a sovereign country of their own or not, if you side with one side or the other, lend support and refuge then that country is declaring war on the opposing side it is that simple that is unless they offer to both sides and take a stance of Switzerland style neutrality I don't see that in the countries you have mentioned...

Quote:
WWII was a special case. Let's not compare that to what is taking place today.
If you do, you won't like the results. WWII was about a guy who went sub-human and started invading and killing. Look around today and it is only the west, headed by the US, that is doing all the invading and killing. It's the US that needs to be stopped.
For all the rhetoric about how dangerous Iraq was and how dangerous Iran is and how dangerous Syria is, none of them have been invading country after country, have they? The US has. Do you think the world is blind to this?
I think we need to take a step back and admit that the world is not ours for the taking. We can not do what we want with it. We can not continue to invade new countries under the guise of "protecting ourselves" when none of these countries are attacking anyone, let alone us. We need to start minding our own business and start creating friendships with these countries instead of enemies.
That is the road to peace... minding our own damned business and leaving everyone else alone to do the same.
Pearl Harbor was not an act of Hitler but of the Japanese nation...to the example of it, this was meant as a this is what happens when we don't stand up but throw around meaningless rhetoric...

It is not possible to ignore those that seek your destruction and figure that if you don't mess with them or oppose them they will leave you alone, especially today...Iran will always say one thing and then do what they want, the Taliban if forced to talk will say/do one thing and turn around and continue what they want...North Korea will continue to do what they want but when pressed and are in need will say whatever it takes to accomplish what they need at the time...the idea that these types of nations or people in general of this type of mentality or religious belief and dedication can one be trusted or two will leave everyone else alone simply because you leave them alone is the ultimate level of being naive...

Quote:
Again, let's drop the rhetoric and stick to what has actually happened here so far.
Putin has admitted people from a part of the former Soviet Union back into Russia, only AFTER they voted overwhelmingly to do that. He didn't force anyone to vote and didn't force which way they voted. They want to be part of Russia because they don't want to be at the mercy of a Ukrainian government that wants them out of the way by any means necessary. I can't blame them for wanting the protection of Russia. You've already seen in this thread the intimidation tactics and violence these people are capable of when they don't get their way.

And, shoe on the other foot, if Mexico wanted to join the US and the US wanted them to join, who the hell is Russia to try and stand in the way of that? How ridiculous would it be if Russia started placing sanctions against the US because they admitted Mexico?
You are reaching so far that you don't even realize what you are actually saying, drop the hate and anger toward the new Ukrainian government and use some common sense...

The example in not Mexico wanting to become a part of the U.S. the proper example is Texas wanting to secede to Mexico or just Secede from the U.S. and Russia sending in troops to support Texas...Crimea is not its own sovereign nation, it is part of Ukraine. The Treaty is not with Crimea it is with Ukraine...

Canada and the U.S. have a treaty, does that mean if Toronto decided they wanted to be part of the U.S. that the U.S. was justified sending in troops and annexing Toronto?

Russia had the right to send in troops to protect their bases, no more no less it really is that simple...you so quickly condemn the U.S. for invading or seeking out those that have declared war upon the U.S. and in the same breath defend Russia for invading a country and annexing it by force, I find this to be confusing, biased and non-consistent.

In one breath you say that people are being fed misinformation and are not able to know the truth and readily accept a vote of 97% of a population that has a divided people just like every other country so there is no possible way with a fair and open vote you are going to get a 97% of the vote on any topic let alone this one...had the vote even been 70/30 it would have been far easier to believe rhetoric or not simply due to the human factor/nature. That number/result is more indicative of a fixed vote or a vote that had those opposed drastically intimidated skewing the vote.
 
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  #68 (permalink)  
Old 03-27-2014, 02:21 PM
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Speaking of rhetoric...you're ramping it up to the level of BS on this one....
It's not BS. What I said is true. You may not like to hear it, but that doesn't make it less true (or BS).
When drones fly over a village and kill innocent men, women and children (yes, many innocent children have died at the hands of the US drones), that is terrorism. There is no other honest way to say it. It's not rhetoric. It's truth.
We're not talking about terrorists dying, here. We're talking about innocent people who have done nothing wrong.
This will create blowback and these people who lost family members will want revenge.
You think that these countries invited their own hellfire. If that's the case, then you might as well say that the US invited 9/11.
Or is it only considered terrorism when it's used against the US? You can't have it both ways, Dude.
If you're going to call the killing of innocent people on 9/11 a terrorist act, then drone bombing other innocent people is also terrorism.
Since you seem to disagree, it leads me to believe that you think an American life somehow has more value than another life.
You and I will never agree on that.

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These countries invited their own hellfire, either by not abiding by peace treaties, controlling parties attacking ours, allowing us to pursue those that have declared war upon us that are taking refuge in their countries, or turning a blind eye and supporting those that attacked our country...
Absolute BS (see above about the comparative value of human life, depending on country of birth), and pretty disturbing that you think that way, to be honest.
Nothing more to say on that.
Again, we will never agree that those innocent people deserved to die.
You seem too think that if a terrorist hides in a country (Pakistan, for example), then it's open season on the citizens of Pakistan.

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Honestly, I do not support the way in which Afghanistan or Iraq were handled...Rather than attempting to be tactical we should have done it the way that war should be and it would have been over in less than 6 months...during a time of war, and regardless what you may want to think the war on terrorism is an actual war whether they have a sovereign country of their own or not, if you side with one side or the other, lend support and refuge then that country is declaring war on the opposing side it is that simple that is unless they offer to both sides and take a stance of Switzerland style neutrality I don't see that in the countries you have mentioned...
"If you're not with us, then you're with the terrorists" - GWB
Yeah. We all heard that the first time it was spoken and it seemed just as unreasonable the first time as it does now when you repeat it.
Some people mind their on business and just want to be left alone.
Foreign concept to guys like you and GWB, I know. But it's how the world sometimes works.

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It is not possible to ignore those that seek your destruction and figure that if you don't mess with them or oppose them they will leave you alone, especially today...Iran will always say one thing and then do what they want, the Taliban if forced to talk will say/do one thing and turn around and continue what they want...North Korea will continue to do what they want but when pressed and are in need will say whatever it takes to accomplish what they need at the time...the idea that these types of nations or people in general of this type of mentality or religious belief and dedication can one be trusted or two will leave everyone else alone simply because you leave them alone is the ultimate level of being naive...
It is you who is nave here.
First, you mention Iran, who hasn't invaded anybody.
Who cares what they say? Actions speak louder than words. Ever hear that phrase?
Iran may talk a lot, but they haven't been invading countries like they're collecting bumper stickers.
The US, on the other hand, has been talking BS about spreading democracy and wanting peaceful relations, while invading many countries over the last couple of decades.
Again, don't listen to the BS the US government spouts. Look at their actions. Their actions prove their lip service is exactly that and nothing more.
That is the reality of the situation.

Next, you mention the Taliban. If the Taliban is the target, why is there so much destruction and devastation in the wake of the US war against them? If they are really the target, stop killing so many innocent people in pursuit of them. No matter how noble the cause is of trying to bring terrorists to justice, even one innocent death in pursuit of that goal will dirty the whole mission. We have hundreds (maybe thousands) of innocent people's blood on our hands. That is not just. It's not war. It's not "collateral damage". It's murder. It's terrorism.
You turn a blind eye to it because it is committed by the US. They won't.

And thirdly, you mention North Korea. This is very funny.
North Korea has already tested nukes, ages ago.
Not a peep from the US. No invasion force. No threats. Nothing.
Iran is a threat because they supposedly want to create a nuclear weapon, but North Korea with actual real nuclear weapons is not?
Hypocrisy much? LOL!

You still think the endless calls for war and repeated invasions of sovereign nations by the US government are about protecting your borders, spreading freedom and democracy and trying to promote peace, don't you?
That's part of your problem right there.

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You are reaching so far that you don't even realize what you are actually saying, drop the hate and anger toward the new Ukrainian government and use some common sense...
I am using common sense. It is yours that has left you.
I have posted a few different examples of really bad characters in the Ukrainian government that are not really exceptions to the rule. They are quite the nasty bunch.
But all that aside, you still have not provided a valid reason why the US and the rest of the west should even be involved. This is between Russia and the Ukraine. We shouldn't b sticking our noses (or our billions of dollars aimed at destabilization) into it. It doesn't concern us and we have no right to go all the way over there to tell them how they should run things.

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Originally Posted by TechWizard View Post
The example in not Mexico wanting to become a part of the U.S. the proper example is Texas wanting to secede to Mexico or just Secede from the U.S. and Russia sending in troops to support Texas...Crimea is not its own sovereign nation, it is part of Ukraine. The Treaty is not with Crimea it is with Ukraine...
I think you got confused, there. Your example is a bit off, but since you mentioned it, it would be pretty stupid and presumptuous of Russia to think they had any say in the matter of Texas vs. US or Texas vs. Mexico.
Kind of like how stupid it is for the west to think we have any right to tell Russia or Ukraine what they should be doing waaaaaaaay over there.

I've already told you and provided links to videos and other information which demonstrates quite handily WHY the Crimea voted to join (actually, REjoin) Russia. If they want to be part of Russia and Russia wants them to be part of Russia, then the US has no leg to stand on. Period. End of story.
If you disagree, please demonstrate otherwise with some equally compelling facts and reasoning.

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Originally Posted by TechWizard View Post
Canada and the U.S. have a treaty, does that mean if Toronto decided they wanted to be part of the U.S. that the U.S. was justified sending in troops and annexing Toronto?
Now you're just being silly. Toronto was never part of the US. The Crimea was part of Russia.
Two totally different scenarios.

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Originally Posted by TechWizard View Post
Russia had the right to send in troops to protect their bases, no more no less it really is that simple...you so quickly condemn the U.S. for invading or seeking out those that have declared war upon the U.S. and in the same breath defend Russia for invading a country and annexing it by force, I find this to be confusing, biased and non-consistent.
Perhaps you find it biased and non-consistent because you got it all wrong, again.
Russia didn't invade the Crimea. They have a long standing agreement and military bases there.
Unless, of course, you consider it an invasion when the US moves troops to a base in Japan? Maybe you do and that's the source of your confusion?
I defended Russia move into Crimea because they did nothing wrong by doing so. Everything they did was according to pre arranged agreements.
When the US, on the other hand, invaded Iraq, they had no agreement with Iraq. They had no right to invade. There's a difference, see?
You keep talking about the old Putin, the KGB Putin, and I think that's clouding your judgement horribly. He hasn't invaded country after country.
(Only one country has done that)

If you want me to stop saying how bad it is that the US and other western nations are for invading countries without moral justification, then I suggest you get them to stop doing it. Until that day arrives, I'm going to continue to call them out on it.
When Russia starts walking all over the sovereignty of countless other nations in the same manner as the US has, then feel free to call them out on it.
I'll even join you.

Last edited by Zap; 03-27-2014 at 02:25 PM.
 
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  #69 (permalink)  
Old 03-27-2014, 03:00 PM
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And now, the Ukrainians are fighting amongst themselves.
Apparently, the right wing factions didn't like the fact that one of their leaders (a guy who has been calling for the death of Russians) was killed by people sympathetic to the new Ukrainian government but NOT the right wing arm of it.
We seem to have ourselves a full blown civil war. Great job America! Great job Canada! Great job UK!

Now let's go in there with our military are really get our hands dirty, stick our noses into someone else's civil war!
 
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Old 03-27-2014, 06:18 PM
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I'll end our conversation here as you know as well as I do that we will never agree as we usually don't and you will continue to distort what it is that I am actually saying to fit your own argument...as you usually do I believe on the Ukraine and Russia subject you are a bit emotional to engage with as well. Hopefully this situation does work out for the best for the people as a whole and I'll just leave it at that...
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  #71 (permalink)  
Old 03-28-2014, 05:21 AM
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I'm not distorting anything, Dude.
And, you keep accusing me of that which you are guilty, not me.
I am using logic and facts to contradict your bias against Russia and your illogical conclusions about events that haven't even happened but because you think they might happen, you also think violence is justified.
You are right about one thing. You and I will never agree on this or any other matter where you believe the US has some moral authority to use violence against people and/or nations that have done nothing wrong.
You want to whitewash your actions and call them anything other that what they are, terrorism.
What we do with our drone strikes on innocent people is no different than what happened to us on 9/11.
And that is why we will never agree on this. You act as though one is justified and the other isn't.

You seem to think that Russia has done something wrong with Crimea but still can't tell us what that was.
You keep repeating the lie that Russia "invaded" and that the vote was fixed.
That makes you a perfect Obama puppet but it doesn't hold up to scrutiny.
You know how to repeat the propaganda we're being subjected to. Congrats.

Meanwhile, back in the real world, violence only begets more violence.
Guys like you and GWB don't see that. The US has been at war for decades with every country your leaders have pressed you against with the exception of Syria.
Thankfully, Putin halted the US war machine in its tracks on that one.
But you have young ones at home just as I do. Think of the world we leave to them.
After dacedes of multiple wars, the US has record debt and countless more enemies to fight.
How's that violent foreign policy working' out for ya? Do you think our kids will grow up in a much safer, more peaceful world because of our actions today? I don't. But again, I believe that violence only begets more violence.
 
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  #72 (permalink)  
Old 03-28-2014, 05:24 AM
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This guy has been right about a lot of things and seems to have his finger on the pulse of world affairs.
Might be worth giving a listen to.

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  #73 (permalink)  
Old 03-28-2014, 08:00 AM
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Quote:
You seem to think that Russia has done something wrong with Crimea but still can't tell us what that was.
You keep repeating the lie that Russia "invaded" and that the vote was fixed.
That makes you a perfect Obama puppet but it doesn't hold up to scrutiny.
Once they exceeded the borders of their bases and in defiance of the Ukrainian governments request that is invading, how can you call it anything else?

Having a protection treaty etc with Mexico does not justify the U.S. going into Tijuana because the mayor requested it and then annexing because there was a local citizen vote that they wanted to. Doing such is an act of war no matter how you look at it.

Quote:
You want to whitewash your actions and call them anything other that what they are, terrorism.
What we do with our drone strikes on innocent people is no different than what happened to us on 9/11.
And that is why we will never agree on this. You act as though one is justified and the other isn't.
If the drone strikes have been agreed upon by other countries be it publicly or behind closed doors (Pakistan) If the target is an enemy target then innocent people being killed is a bad thing but not terrorism. It is a bi-product of any war. War is ugly always has been and no matter how technologically advanced, always will be.

Unfortunately this war is a global war, just as in Vietnam soldiers from all over the world had to learn the art of the Guerrilla tactics being used by the enemy so is the case with having to learn to adapt to this new type of theater of war. When an opponent declares war why it is the responsibility of the ones or the country that war has been declared upon is the instant bad guy and not supposed to react is beyond me.

You seem to forget how many innocent people are being killed by the terrorists with every suicide bombing, bombing, out right attack on civilian police and their buildings, the thousands that are being killed are not a result of our tactics rather theirs and it would go on whether we were engaged or not. It could be argued that if 6 people are killed 5 innocent in order to stop the hundreds or thousands that are killed due to the person targeted that is that bad word and I don't necessarily agree with it called acceptable loss. Every life is precious, I hold that view too...

===============================================

Here is the ultimate thing to remember when it comes to conflict or war.

There will always be war and conflict. To believe otherwise is naive. Basic human nature will make that always so.

There will always be
  1. Different Political View and Goals
  2. Greed
  3. Insecurity and Jealousy
  4. Corrupt or Distorted Religious Views Dedications and Commitments
  5. People who are Easily Manipulated and Controlled
  6. Just Pure Insanity

These things are simply part of the human nature. A certain belief that simply ignoring what is happening (sticking your head in the sand) will cause things to be less dangerous or wrong, or that ignoring others who oppose you so vehemently will cause them to be less aggressive is in my view wrong and dangerous regardless of what has motivated the actions...
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Old 03-28-2014, 08:59 AM
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IMO, Nigel Farage put it best in this article.

Now I am not UKIP voter but he does have a few valid points..
Quote:
Mr Farage once again repeated his belief that the EU is ultimately responsible for the current crisis in Ukraine, by offering "false hope" to its citizens and persuading them to turn away from Russia.
And also this..
Quote:
Mr Farage went on to attack European military involvement in Libya, which helped force Colonel Gaddafi from power in 2011, saying the African country was now "completely ungovernable" and becoming a "breeding ground for terrorism".
It's only a short article but he does make sense.
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Old 03-30-2014, 06:28 AM
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Originally Posted by G10 View Post
IMO, Nigel Farage put it best in this article.

Now I am not UKIP voter but he does have a few valid points..

And also this.. It's only a short article but he does make sense.
Nigel Farage is a smart guy.
He's right about Libya and the Ukraine.

The EU and the US and Canada are directly responsible for creating the mess in the Ukraine.
We can't pump billions of dollars into groups that want to overthrow the Ukrainian government and then claim we are not responsible for the country falling apart.

Meanwhile, we did such a bad job on Libya that we've screwed that country up for a good long time. And, to make matters worse, we're funding Al Qaida (supposedly our enemy in the war on terror) there.
Never heard our politicians give us a good reason for why we are giving our sworn enemy our money there.

The whole war on terror is a joke.
It was designed to give GWB brained folks something to focus on while all of our liberties are taken away by our own government.
Fighting Al Qaida in Afghanistan and Pakistan, while giving them money in Libya is sheer stupidity and accomplishes nothing constructive, just more death and finger pointing.

When we destabilized the Ukraine, that meant we weren't just simple observers, but participants in a high stakes political poker game and when that game works against us, we have no right to complain.
We wanted to destabilize the government for our own political gain and when Putin turned that into his own advantage and our disadvantage, well... That sometimes happens when you play with fire. Sometimes, you get burned.
Will we learn our lesson? Doubtful, if past experience teaches us anything.
 
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Old 04-03-2014, 06:13 AM
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The US is shooting themselves in the foot.

http://rt.com/news/nasa-suspends-rel...roscosmos-961/

I guess they will start walking to the space station from now on. Idiots!
If Putin decides he wants to go move for move on this one, the US space program is finished.
 
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Old 04-04-2014, 09:54 AM
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Changing the subject a tad, this could be a blessing in disguise for NASA.

I have no idea why they shut down the NASA project anyway and I personally think that your president is very shortsighted..
Quote:
A report by the Space Foundation estimated that NASA contributed $180 billion to the economy in 2005. More than 60% of this came from commercial goods and services created by companies related from space technology. This means that each dollar of NASA spending creates $10 of benefit in the economy. NASA spending created the satellite communications which allows not only radio and television, but also telemedicine, GPS navigation, weather forecasts, and defense.
Our UK news team interviewed one of NASA's Astronauts and he generously set the figure at $5 return for every $1 spent on NASA.
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Old 04-05-2014, 12:15 PM
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The US administration is getting dumber by the minute.

So, they place sanctions on Russia, withdraw international cooperation in several key areas and still expect Russia to kiss their ass?

As Russia is pushed away from dealing with the US and it's partners, they are naturally working on deals with other nations. So, they do a deal with Iran where they trade oil for gold and other goods. No US currency involved.
What does the US do? They stick their nose directly into the situation and threaten further sanctions against Russia if they go through with the deal.
Let's make this perfectly clear... The deal is between Russia and Iran and is NOT conducted in US dollars. So, the US is not involved at all, in any way. Absolutely NONE of their business. Yet, they still think they have the right to tell Russia and Iran how to deal with each other. Unbelievable!

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-0...r-busting-deal

Quote:
On the heels of Russia's potential "holy grail" gas deal with China, the news of a Russia-Iran oil "barter" deal, it appears the US is starting to get very concerned about its almighty Petrodollar

*U.S. HAS WARNED RUSSIA, IRAN AGAINST POSSIBLE OIL BARTER DEAL
*U.S. SAYS ANY SUCH DEAL WOULD TRIGGER SANCTIONS
*U.S. HAS CONVEYED CONCERNS TO IRANIAN GOVT THROUGH ALL CHANNELS
We suspect these sanctions would have more teeth than some travel bans, but, as we noted previously, it is just as likely to be another epic geopolitical debacle resulting from what was originally intended to be a demonstration of strength and instead is rapidly turning out into a terminal confirmation of weakness.
The US administration is slitting its own throat.
They are playing a political chess game with an opponent that is far superior to them and Putin is trouncing them at every opportunity.
Obama and his pals should really quit now and salvage whatever they still have left.

But they won't. This ain't gonna be pretty to watch.
 
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Old 04-05-2014, 01:05 PM
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I am from Ukraine and living 200 km from Crimea. I think Putin never will be fight with USA. For the simple reason that he has nothing to fight)). The general part of Russia army very technically outdated. New developments available in small quantities. Best forces used in the Crimea, the rest of the USSR trash stayed at home. Of course, Russia has a large nuclear capacity but they not a Kamikaze).

The general part of russian peoples don`t want any war. Russia goverment media try constantly set peoples against the U.S. All private media Putin is closed. But a lof of russian people have immunity against them.I think Putin lost this game, because Ukraine and Kiev this is historical mother of Russia. A lot of people in Ukraine has relatives in Russia (60%). If Putin begin real war he gets inside the revolution. The Crimea will be next hot point in Russia. Because Crimea Tatars nevers accept Russia.
 
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Old 04-08-2014, 06:28 AM
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