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Old 09-26-2006, 01:44 PM
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GOD is 53.28 inches

I recently saw a program where some scientists tried to measure the effectiveness of prayer*. They closely recorded the progress of a set of ill patients some of which were being prayed for and some of which were not.

The results were inconclusive; that is, there was no difference in the recovery of the "prayed for" and the "not-prayed for" patients.

The religous community that took part in the study said that it was impossible to "measure" the effectiveness of prayer becasue God was not "measureable" and he would not allow it. Therefore the actual attempt to "meausre" the prayes negated their benefitial effect. A handy excuse in itself, but it occured to me that...

If I were to attempt to "measure" the effectiveness of all prayers (while not practically possible, but theoretically) I would be able to negate the effect of prayer entirely and make it worthless. Thus over-powering God. With a nothing more than a ruler.




* This is not the exact study but a similar one: http://www.ahjonline.com/article/PII...06496/abstract
 
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Old 09-26-2006, 01:48 PM
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I have read studies like this before. There have been several studies done on the ffectiveness of prayer. Being prayed for did not make the patients fair better. But it has been proven that those who believe in god, recover quicker and more often then those who do not believe in god.

Guess I am screwed if my kidney fails.
 
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Old 09-26-2006, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IslaScotts
But it has been proven that those who believe in god, recover quicker and more often then those who do not believe in god.
No, not true. Sorry about that but people who do not believe in god recover just as quick as those who do.
 
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Old 09-26-2006, 01:53 PM
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I will find the studies for you. They attribute it not to god, scientifically, they attribute it to giving the person more of a will to survive. It is called mind over matter. So give me until like tomorrow and something, I will find those studies for you.
 
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Old 09-26-2006, 01:55 PM
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Remote Prayer, various studies, all too small to be conclusive on a large scale.
Problem with studies like that is the control factors are almost impossible.
 
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Old 09-26-2006, 01:55 PM
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I think those people who believe that they will get better quickly, are more likely to do so than those who believe otherwise.
 
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Old 09-26-2006, 02:00 PM
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Well let me give you a personal example. I get kidney stones a couple times a year every year, I have had this affliction for 10 years now. Now when I first got them I wanted to die from the pain, I would be to the point of almost passing out. I got confused and could hardly speak. But now, the pain "lessens" as soon as I arrive at the hospital. Waiting room or in the exam room. Does it really hurt less, No! It is mind over matter. You can actually heal this way and manage pain this way.
 
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Old 09-26-2006, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by jg_v7n
I think those people who believe that they will get getter quickly, are more likely to do so than those who believe otherwise.
Agree. I heard that being happy is contrubiting to a quick recovery as well. I doubt, though, that people who believe in god would be more happy than those who don't, afterall those people who believe in god also live with the fear of being rejected from heaven. Something that those who don't believe totally lack.
 
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Old 09-26-2006, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Ferre
No, not true. Sorry about that but people who do not believe in god recover just as quick as those who do.
Actually, I think IslaScotts is right here.

There have been studies done that show that those who believe recover quicker.

Call it faith healing or whatever but it does seem to work.

I will try to dig those up as I recall them also.
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Old 09-26-2006, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Ferre
Agree. I heard that being happy is contrubiting to a quick recovery as well. I doubt, though, that people who believe in god would be more happy than those who don't, afterall those people who believe in god also live with the fear of being rejected from heaven. Something that those who don't believe totally lack.
But wouldn't you agree that the fear they face would be quite the motivator to STAY ALIVE. Giving them them the will, nay need, to stay alive?
 
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Old 09-26-2006, 02:03 PM
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Happyness is a huge factor. Laughter is a great healer...
 
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Old 09-26-2006, 02:04 PM
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This is one of the softest 'science' research areas available.

You can't get a large enough IDENTICAL control group to prove anything. What other factors ASIDE from their belief do they have in their lives. Whether or not it works is irrelevant to me until there's some real research done, but it's great propaganda ain't it?
 
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Old 09-26-2006, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by jg_v7n
Happyness is a huge factor. Laughter is a great healer...
I used to have to go for a lot of nerve blocks and surgies and such. So I started wearing crazy wigs in. For my benefit and to get a laugh from the employees there.
 
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Old 09-26-2006, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by IslaScotts
But wouldn't you agree that the fear they face would be quite the motivator to STAY ALIVE. Giving them them the will, nay need, to stay alive?
I thought that believers were not supposed to fear death, but embrace it as a new beginning?
 
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Old 09-26-2006, 02:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jemagee
This is one of the softest 'science' research areas available.

You can't get a large enough IDENTICAL control group to prove anything. What other factors ASIDE from their belief do they have in their lives. Whether or not it works is irrelevant to me until there's some real research done, but it's great propaganda ain't it?
I don't think it is propaganda at all. I am an atheist, and always will be. I am interested in it scientifically.. not on some personal emotional or spiritual level.
 
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Old 09-26-2006, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IslaScotts
But wouldn't you agree that the fear they face would be quite the motivator to STAY ALIVE. Giving them them the will, nay need, to stay alive?
Maybe yes, but at the other hand we humans have a build in system that gives us the will to stay alive without the need for fears for imaginary places and I don't believe that people who believe would have more motivation to stay alive and get healthy than those who don't, there are many more factors that account in that department, like family and such.
 
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Old 09-26-2006, 02:09 PM
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On a scientific level, it's weak science, anecdotal evidence at best, i call it propaganda cause if you look deep enough you'll see the research was 'sponsored' by various religious organizations I'm sure, and it's 'propaganda' as they can use the results to try and get more converts or whatever.
 
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Old 09-26-2006, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by jg_v7n
I thought that believers were not supposed to fear death, but embrace it as a new beginning?
Depends what faith your speaking of. It isn't really the fear though that puts them on an easier path to recovery. It is the belief that someone is healing them. If I beleive my pain is less, my pain IS less. If they believe that god is healing them, then they heal. Belief is a lot more powerful than people think. I use the power of belief with my medical problems all the time. It still works for me, and I don't have anyone watching my back so to speak.
 
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Old 09-26-2006, 02:09 PM
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BTW, the understanding of brain chemistry and function in regards to fear and laughter and happiness and sadness would be vital in any such debate, and the research last i checked is pretty inconclusive, brain function is very unknown (brain pathways as it were)
 
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Old 09-26-2006, 02:11 PM
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not everything has to be seen to be proven.... what about the dead freaking cat in the box?!?!
 
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