Islam

[John Scott]

Originally Posted by Zap

You know Bush doesn't like homosexuals and it's because of the bible. So he doesn't execute them. So what?

Beautiful statement. I love it. So you think, as a Liberal, that people should not have the right to like or dislike certain practices. I love it. The mind police.

The point of tolerance is not to like everybody, but to not force people to like something. I can be perfectly within my rights to not like somebody or some group. But tolerance dictates that I do not force them to act inline with my own rules. I don't like marriage, but I am not going to cut off the heads of those people who marry. I don't like people who listen to heavy metal, but I am not going to chop off their right hands. That is tolerance.

You seem to want to force people to like homosexuals. Why do you want to
force your own morality on others?

Maybe you should take a lesson from the Christians and learn to agree to disagree, without creating laws forcing one group to follow the morality of another.

[Ferre]

Originally Posted by John Scott

Zap, seriously, when was the last time you saw Bush order the execution of a man for being homosexual? When did Bush ban divorce? When did Bush put people in boiling water for engaging in extra-marital sex?

Yeah, that would be a tad too much foir a president to do in a western democracy, he does however oppose gay marriage because of his personal believe system, and what to think on how he feels about atheists?

When George Bush was campaigning for the presidency, as incumbent vice-president, one of his stops was in Chicago, Illinois, on August 27, 1987. At O'Hare Airport he held a formal outdoor news conference. There Robert I. Sherman, a reporter for the American Atheist news journal, fully accredited by the state of Illinois and by invitation a participating member of the press corps covering the national candidates, had the following exchange with then-Vice-President Bush.




Sherman: What will you do to win the votes of the Americans who are atheists?

Bush: I guess I'm pretty weak in the atheist community. Faith in God is important to me.

Sherman: Surely you recognize the equal citizenship and patriotism of Americans who are atheists?

Bush: No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.

Sherman (somewhat taken aback): Do you support as a sound constitutional principle the separation of state and church?

Bush: Yes, I support the separation of church and state. I'm just not very high on atheists.





On October 29, 1988, Mr. Sherman had a confrontation with Ed Murnane, cochairman of the Bush-Quayle '88 Illinois campaign. This concerned a lawsuit Mr. Sherman had filed to stop the Community Consolidated School District 21 (Chicago, Illinois, suburb) from forcing his first-grade atheist son to pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States "one nation under God" (Bush's phrase). The following conversation took place.




Sherman: American Atheists filed the Pledge of Allegiance lawsuit yesterday. Does the Bush campaign have an official response to this filing?

Murnane: It's bull****.

Sherman: What is bull****?

Murnane: Everything that American Atheists does, Rob, is bull****.

Sherman: Thank you for telling me what the official position of the Bush campaign is on this issue.

Murnane: You're welcome





This suit, now in federal district court for over three years, is not considered to be bull**** by the federal judge before whom it is pending. During the time it has been in the federal court, Robert Sherman's son, now age nine, has been physically and psychologically brutalized in his school for refusing to pledge to a "nation under God."

After Bush's election but before his taking office, American Atheists wrote to Bush asking that he consider being sworn into office on the Constitution instead of the Bible and also asking him to retract his August 1987 statement. Bush had his White House buddy, C. Boyden Gray, counsel to the president, reply on White House stationery on February 21, 1989, stating that substantively Bush stood by his original statement.

Found here: http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/ghwbush.htm

What makes this statements about non believers any different from statements by, say, the president of Iran in an Islamic context?

[South]

Originally Posted by Ferre

Yeah, that would be a tad too much foir a president to do in a western democracy, he does however oppose gay marriage because of his personal believe system, and what to think on how he feels about atheists?



Found here: http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/ghwbush.htm

What makes this statements about non believers any different from statements by, say, the president of Iran in an Islamic context?

I'm getting confused. Which Bush are we on here?

[littleFella]

We're moving in circles.
I'll pass.

[John Scott]

This coming from a fan of recursion.

[kristeejo]

wow - if i based my faith on you guys i'd be an atheist.

[Tanya]

Originally Posted by kristeejo

wow - if i based my faith on you guys i'd be an atheist.

Hey Kristeejo If you were to base your faith on the guys and what they believe in and so on, you would not be considerd an Atheist, (unless none of them believe in 'God' or have doubts about 'God' existing). Debating about religions and not accepting other religions and so on does not make you an Atheist, pluss there are 2 types of Atheists but that's beyond the point, its not a lack of belief born out of simple ignorance of religious teachings.

SO yeah, i just wanted to point out that you would not be considerd an Atheist had you based you faith simpley on other peoples views on religions and so on.

[kristeejo]

Originally Posted by Tanya

Hey Kristeejo If you were to base your faith on the guys and what they believe in and so on, you would not be considerd an Atheist, (unless none of them believe in 'God' or have doubts about 'God' existing). Debating about religions and not accepting other religions and so on does not make you an Atheist, pluss there are 2 types of Atheists but that's beyond the point, its not a lack of belief born out of simple ignorance of religious teachings.

SO yeah, i just wanted to point out that you would not be considerd an Atheist had you based you faith simpley on other peoples views on religions and so on.

My point, Tanya, is there is a way to properly debate religion and this is not it IMO. Religion is based on love and I see none of that in this thread.

[Zap]

Originally Posted by kristeejo

My point, Tanya, is there is a way to properly debate religion and this is not it IMO. Religion is based on love and I see none of that in this thread.

I still love John as much as I did yesterday.

[ewomack]

Originally Posted by kristeejo

My point, Tanya, is there is a way to properly debate religion and this is not it IMO. Religion is based on love and I see none of that in this thread.

Agreed. The religion discussion here resemble rants more than discussions. I don't know why I keep getting pulled into them.

But we're not really discussing religion here, but the politics behind religion. You can find intolerance in both Christianity and Islam. People tend to judge them unfairly based on the extremists. Islamists in America have spoken out against extremist Islam in the Middle East. They aren't taking up arms here. If they were we'd know about it, because the United States has millions of Muslims. The American Muslim. So far, all of them I've known have been appalled at the extremism elsewhere.

[John Scott]

You mistakenly think that George Bush is banning same sex marriage. He isn't. The states decided for themselves who whether to allow same sex marriage or not. Some states do allow same sex marriage. Some states don't. George Bush is irrelevant.

And for those states that do not allow same sex marriage, it isn't necessarily a religious decision. Some people think that marriage is the union of a man and a woman. It has nothing to do with religion. Some states ban smoking. Some states ban gambling. Some states ban public nudity. It has nothing to do with Christianity.

[littleFella]

Originally Posted by John Scott

Some states ban smoking. Some states ban gambling. Some states ban public nudity. It has nothing to do with Christianity.

That must be that damn Islam again. It penetrated the good ole' US of A

[chicgeek]

Down you two.

Regardless of spelling, on with the debate!

[menj]

Actually the convention of spelling the word "Shi'a" that I have seen thus far in the English language usually goes as "Shia" or "Shi'a" or "Shiah". I have not seen anyone spelling it phonetically as Shi3a, Shiaa, Chiaa, Chi'a, or Chi3a. But I agree that it is not significant.

- MENJ

[Julie]

I think extremes in any religion is harmful, and has resulted in millions of deaths around the world over the course of the centuries. Whether that is Muslim, Christian, Jewish, or whatever.

[John Scott]

upsonians, I'm curious. What sect are you?

[Tanya]

John...

going back to that link:

Yo Muslim Mama’s so dirty she needs to creep up on bathwater (not that she ever would).

[Cricket]

Respectfully, unless I have missed it somewhere, you did not answer my question.

[monhunter]

islam is good but beacuse of bunch of people it has been critised

[Cricket]

Kareem, you have expressed yourself very well. I for one, am impressed and respect your comments.