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Controversial Social Issues Discussions concerning controversial social issues. Topics include politics, religion, culture, social and economic issues, etc. Respect required at all times.


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  #61  
Old 07-30-2007, 10:14 AM
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watley watley is offline
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Well, looks like we've wrapped up some of the core philosophical questions of the universe, and it only took five dozen posts.

*dusts hands*

Shall we have a go at curing cancer next?
 
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  #62  
Old 07-30-2007, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Scott
So you believe just what you were taught as a child? You didn't make any choices, you never had any original insights or thoughts?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferre
I only believe what I know to be real, and during my upbringing that's what I was tought to do, my parents told me I was too young when I asked them why I did not have a religion like the other kids, they told me to do some research on religions as an adult before making any choices, but they gave me the advice never to trust any religion that tells you 'something bad can happen to you' when you don't join them.
You are limiting your response to religion? I did not limit my question to religion. I asked whether you believe everything you were taught as child, or do you make up your own mind? Are people able to make choices?

Are you able to make choices or are you simply parroting what your parents taught you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferre
For most muslims or christians the question is not if they want to become members of that faith children have little choice, most of them don't even question whether they want to stay muslims or christians as adults.
Where do you gt this crap? Seriously, I want to be introduced to the person who did not question the teachings of his childhood as an adult.
 
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  #63  
Old 07-30-2007, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by John Scott View Post
Where do you gt this crap? Seriously, I want to be introduced to the person who did not question the teachings of his childhood as an adult.
You have obviously been replying to him throughout this thread.
 
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  #64  
Old 07-30-2007, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Scott View Post
You are limiting your response to religion? I did not limit my question to religion. I asked whether you believe everything you were taught as child, or do you make up your own mind? Are people able to make choices?
John, as we were talking about religion, I answered you in that context, but when you really want to know, I do not take anything for granted, not even what my parents told me, everything I have to decide is decided by me, and only me, of course I take al the information I have into account before I make any choices, and information from trusted sources carry more weight than other sources. having said that, I do not find people who believe that myths are reality to be very credible, and my parents are not that kind of people either, both my parents are well educated people and, as all my family are busyness owners, independent from state, church or other organisations that tend to influence people's decision making.

Now about your question if other people are able to make choices. Sure they are.

Now answer me this John. Are babies able to make rational choices about religion?


When babies can choose whether they want to be baptized into a religion or not, I rest my case. If not, than most people do not have a religion by choice, but due to their parents, environment, etc.

Just trying to get things factually clear here. fact is that most people are introduced into their religion without making that choice themselves.

Of course, they have the choice whether they want to STAY in their religion, but before I answer that question I want you to look up the definition of "comfort zone" in psychiatry, you will find that this sounds more easy than it actually is. Specially for people who are conditioned to fear to go a bad place like hell.
 
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  #65  
Old 07-30-2007, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferre
I do not take anything for granted, not even what my parents told me, everything I have to decide is decided by me, and only me, of course I take al the information I have into account before I make any choices, and information from trusted sources carry more weight than other sources
You might want to assume that a large part of humanity conducts itself in this manner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferre
fact is that most people are introduced into their religion without making that choice themselves
And they have the ability and most likely the inclination to re-evaluate their beliefs thousands of times in the course of their lives.
 
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  #66  
Old 07-30-2007, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by John Scott View Post
And they have the ability and most likely the inclination to re-evaluate their beliefs thousands of times in the course of their lives.
Looking at your above statement, I take it that you are not at all familiar with the term: Comfort Zone or know the efects of conditioning on the human psyche.

Quote:
Of course, they have the choice whether they want to STAY in their religion, but before I answer that question I want you to look up the definition of "comfort zone" in psychiatry, you will find that this sounds more easy than it actually is. Specially for people who are conditioned to fear to go a bad place like hell.
 
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  #67  
Old 07-30-2007, 01:09 PM
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The documentary "Jesus Camp" shows a good number of kids who don't look like they have a choice to follow evangelicalism. It seems to have become their unquestioned reality. I also have relatives who didn't have a choice. They had to follow along or face serious consequences. They home school and base their entire lives on what they call "the truth." Not all, or even the majority of, religious families work this way, but they definitely exist.
 
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  #68  
Old 07-30-2007, 05:17 PM
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Certain religious beliefs can lead to a narrowing of the mind but then again, certain ones can lead to a open minded attitude.

Reading through this thread, you call people names "gullible" etc and then when they say that they feel sorry for you, you go into one. - You state your opinion of them and they state their opinion of what you have said.

Are you really telling me that your comments aren't said to get a reaction so that you can use it to prove your point. That is why I won't rise to the bait
 
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  #69  
Old 07-30-2007, 07:59 PM
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GOD is our creator and our savior. his actually our Everything...
 
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  #70  
Old 07-30-2007, 09:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ewomack View Post
The documentary "Jesus Camp" shows a good number of kids who don't look like they have a choice to follow evangelicalism.
What makes you think they have no choice?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ewomack View Post
I also have relatives who didn't have a choice. They had to follow along or face serious consequences.
Even when there are consequences, people still have a choice. What were those "serious consequences"?
 
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  #71  
Old 07-30-2007, 09:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by superboysahil View Post
Hi everybody,
I just wanna ask
Wats ur defination of god?
Dude... can't you just Google it and find out already...?

I'm with chicgeek btw... spellcheckers are free and easy to use. Comes built in with the Google Toolbar even.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Scott View Post
Even when there are consequences, people still have a choice.
You ever take philosophy John?

-Michael
 
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  #72  
Old 07-30-2007, 10:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferre View Post
Looking at your above statement, I take it that you are not at all familiar with the term: Comfort Zone or know the efects of conditioning on the human psyche.
Ferre, it's of course expected that you would try to invoke such terms in this discussion, but the fact is that people question their beliefs all the time.

Condistioning of the psyche, eh? You don't buy that crap do you?

You would like us to believe that you, and you alone, are capable of introspection, and the rest of the world is too "afraid" to evaluate its own beliefs for "conditioning" that such introspection would send them to hell.

News flash: Nobody's afraid of hell. According to an Iraqi friend of mine, most Iraqis eat pork. Before the invasion they also watched Bay Watch on satellite TV. They fornicate and commit adultery and every other sin in the book, all the while believing in Allah.

Same goes for Christians. They fornicate. They commit adultery. They divorce. They lust after the flesh. They covet the possessions of others. And according to your philosophy, they are all scared too damn ****less to be able to even question their beliefs. You're preaching a lie. If Christian and Muslims are not afraid to sin, then they sure as hell aren't afraid to question their own beliefs.
 
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  #73  
Old 07-30-2007, 10:01 PM
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Originally Posted by mvandemar View Post
You ever take philosophy John?
"Take"? You mean study? If that's the question, yes, for several years.
 
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  #74  
Old 07-30-2007, 10:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Scott View Post
"Take"? You mean study? If that's the question, yes, for several years.
"Take", as in formally study in a classroom environment, guided instruction and fellow students all processing ideas and providing feedback at the same time.

Or some reasonable facsimile, maybe less formal, but more than reading. Anything like that?

-Michael
 
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  #75  
Old 07-30-2007, 10:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mvandemar View Post
"Take", as in formally study in a classroom environment, guided instruction and fellow students all processing ideas and providing feedback at the same time.

Or some reasonable facsimile, maybe less formal, but more than reading. Anything like that?

-Michael

Yes, as a matter of fact. Why do you ask?
 
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  #76  
Old 07-30-2007, 10:16 PM
mvandemar mvandemar is offline
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Originally Posted by John Scott View Post
Yes, as a matter of fact. Why do you ask?
It seemed like the type of subject that would suit you, and I was just curious.

So, do you believe in free will? Or are you more of a destiny kind of person?

-Michael
 
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  #77  
Old 07-30-2007, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by mvandemar View Post
It seemed like the type of subject that would suit you, and I was just curious.

So, do you believe in free will? Or are you more of a destiny kind of person?

-Michael
Free will is the question of all time. If we do not believe in the supernatural, then there is no possibility of free will. At least that is how it would seem. Cause and effect precludes free will. But I feel there is something more. I hope that we have free will. Kind of hard to argue for it, though.
 
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  #78  
Old 07-30-2007, 10:45 PM
mvandemar mvandemar is offline
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Originally Posted by John Scott View Post
Free will is the question of all time. If we do not believe in the supernatural, then there is no possibility of free will. At least that is how it would seem. Cause and effect precludes free will. But I feel there is something more. I hope that we have free will. Kind of hard to argue for it, though.
Not that hard, really... we appear to experience it, so no harder to argue free will than it is to argue whether what we see, feel, and hear is an illusion or not. Same limitations though, as in there is no way that we have been able to come up with so far to conclusively prove or disprove it's existence. You should watch some Darren Brown videos sometime while pondering the question:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyQjr1YL0zg

Interesting to say the least.

I bounce back and forth with that one all the time actually. I think that in many ways we lack the language to properly discuss it, and that there is in fact a mathematical equation or relationship out there somewhere that can accurately describe it, and we just haven't found it yet. I think it is probably similar to the question of whether or not "random" is a valid concept. It seems that there is no way to ultimately determine if something has no pattern, only whether or not we are able to see a pattern in it.

As to the original question, I do not know fully what I believe about God, but I do believe that "good" is a valid concept, something that does indeed exist, and while I do accept that there is also perhaps "evil", I do not feel that it is necessitated by there being good. Most people I talk to either believe that neither exists (it's all a matter of perception), or that they both exist, and that you cannot have one without the other.

To me, the mere existence of good is God, although I have no clue if that means a conscious entity (or entities) or not.

-Michael
 
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  #79  
Old 07-30-2007, 10:51 PM
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Originally Posted by John Scott View Post
Some people who commit suicide are able to do so only after convincing themselves that there is no afterlife.
I am not so religious, but I always believe that there is a afterlife
 
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  #80  
Old 07-30-2007, 11:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mvandemar View Post
So, do you believe in free will? Or are you more of a destiny kind of person?

-Michael
I believe in free will and not destiny.

If one believes in God and also destiny, then (to me anyway) there lies a problem.

To believe in destiny would mean that your course of events have been pre-mapped out. Try telling that to all the African parents wo lose their children at birth due to starvation. All the people that are born severley disabled (have never heard or seen anything) all of their lives and then die. Try explaining destiny to them.

Some people say that they have been bad in a previous life and it is recompense - Nonsense, how can one be made to pay for something that they can not remember, where's the kindness in that?

Destiny and God do not go hand in hand, though some would argue otherwise.
 
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