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Controversial Social Issues Discussions concerning controversial social issues. Topics include politics, religion, culture, social and economic issues, etc. Respect required at all times.


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  #101  
Old 07-31-2007, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Ferre View Post
I am one of those people who only partly support the theory, I think that it is free will that can, and does change those chains of events, even when changed due to free will, a chain of events will still be unbroken.
Not sure if people would class me as religious or not but I also think that it is 'free will' that changes those events. Hell, even the bible (or manual in your case ) supports 'free will' for changing outcomes believe it or not.
 
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  #102  
Old 07-31-2007, 04:56 PM
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"When god created mankind - she was only experimenting!"
 
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  #103  
Old 07-31-2007, 05:02 PM
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You hit the nail on the head dude.

All the probs, all the wickedness, how it all went wrong can be summed up in one word - She
 
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  #104  
Old 07-31-2007, 05:08 PM
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life in general is so complicated, has so many traps and chances to f*** up - only a woman could have organized this!
 
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  #105  
Old 07-31-2007, 07:02 PM
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lol!

Not even I could get away with a comment like that here and I'm a male chauvinist pig

Too many women here at v7n to get away with stuff like that, dude. - I'm guessing those red blocks will never turn green
 
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  #106  
Old 08-01-2007, 03:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mvandemar View Post
Ok, try this quick exercise if you could please...

Suspend your disbelief in God for a moment. Completely allow yourself to believe in a benevolent higher power, one who is, or who effectively is, omniscient. One that can take away pain from you, and give you strength when you need it. Don't just get the point where you allow for the possibility for God to exist. Bring yourself all the way to full fledged belief, to certainty.

Allow yourself to believe this completely for at least 10 minutes. Then come back and tell us what it felt like.

-Michael
It felt like I was really trying hard to imagine there's a god that can take away imaginable pain and give me strength when I need it.

My "ego" can use its free will to attempt to feel and imagine stuff that's not there, it cannot make real that which is not there, that would be delusional, which I am not. Even when I suspend my disbelieve, wich I have done many times in the past for your information, allowing myself to 'see god' as I was adviced by others, open to get the message if it was there, I do not receive that message.


I did have a lot of enlightened experiences though, but none of those indicated that there is a god as described by the Abrahamic cults.


Did you ever use DMT, Ayahuaska or LSD during periods of time to explore your spirituality in such a way?
It's the oldest method known to man to experience what some call god. I did, do it regulary and I do understand the concept but that doesn't make me believe in what Abraham made it to be.

To me, to describe 'god' would be that it's the intergallactic connection we feel through the energy source that feeds us all. Our earth being one of he adaptors.

Last edited by Ferre; 08-01-2007 at 03:22 AM.
 
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  #107  
Old 08-01-2007, 06:08 AM
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"The Faith Paradox".

Two people from two different religions are in a room who both believe different things that are mutually exclusive. That can not both be right, but they can both be wrong. Both have accepted their position based on faith which can't be questioned. You are a realist listening to the claims of these two people. How do you determine who is correct?

For example, many Christians claim that you can only get to Heaven through Jesus. Muslims claim that you can only get to Heaven through Mohamed. Since both used the word "only" they are mutually exclusive. Since both want to convert me then how do I determine which one will get me to Heaven, if there even is Heaven?
 
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  #108  
Old 08-01-2007, 06:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferre View Post
I do know about determinism John, and although I am familiar with the concept, at the same time I am one of those people who think that occurances are not always the result of unbroken chains, I am one of those people who only partly support the theory, I think that it is free will that can, and does change those chains of events, even when changed due to free will, a chain of events will still be unbroken.

As you know, I am not a philosopher neither did I study it, but that doesn't make my views less credible, there are numerous scientists and philosophers who do not agree with the theory. In fact, the theory is known to be something that mostly religious people support, you won't find many atheists supporting that idea.

It's an opinion, nothing more, as there is the theory that all we expierience is the projection of the mind's eye, just another theory, just as worthful, or worthless, whatever suits the interpretor.




Yes.
Everything in the physical world is subject the the law of cause and effect.

The fact that you believe in free will would seem to indicate that you believe in a non-physical dimension. Oh how Dawkins would be disappointed in you.
 
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  #109  
Old 08-01-2007, 06:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferre View Post
Since both want to convert me then how do I determine which one will get me to Heaven, if there even is Heaven?
The one with the most money

Sorry, that doesn't really help does it.

The only way for you to determine would be to listen to both, let them both show you what they say from their respective books, question and see which one can actually provide answers according to their faith by using their book and see which one actually follows it's own teachings according to their faith.

This can be done quite easily I'd say as saying one folows something and actually doing it are two different things. - Actions speak louder than words.
 
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  #110  
Old 08-01-2007, 07:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferre View Post
It felt like I was really trying hard to imagine there's a god that can take away imaginable pain and give me strength when I need it.
Well, either you lied to yourself or to us when you said that you were free to believe what you want, or you lied when you said you actually gave a serious attempt to this exercise. "It felt like I was trying to imagine"? You equate that with actually allowing yourself to believe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferre View Post
My "ego" can use its free will to attempt to feel and imagine stuff that's not there, it cannot make real that which is not there, that would be delusional, which I am not.
See, that's not true, on multiple levels. You don't know nearly as much as you think when it comes to your own mind or anyone else's. You have convinced yourself in your mind, despite what logic actually does tell you, that lack of personal experience equates to the solid conclusion that something does not exist. You can't get much more delusional than that. I would love to see you attempt to put that into some sort of formal proof.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferre View Post
To me, to describe 'god' would be that it's the intergallactic connection we feel through the energy source that feeds us all. Our earth being one of he adaptors.
Ok, do you not realize that the only difference really between what most other people call god and what you just described is that you think that the energy you described doesn't have consciousness? The belief of the existence of "the energy source that feeds us all" indicates a belief that goes beyond the physical world, and is what allows for the possibility of life after death, etc.

Try talking to this energy for a couple months.

-Michael
 
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  #111  
Old 08-01-2007, 08:15 AM
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mvandermar, thing is, we should respect his views and it is wrong to say that just because Ferre didn't experience anything, that he lied to himself.

I have my beliefs and though I may disagree with Ferre's, I respect them and am not here to convince him otherwise.

You see the thing is, some people can't see why atheists can't see it and atheists can't see why people that believe can't see it.

Though fair do's, if I ever see Ferre, I will throw him in the nearest lake and baptise that mutha
 
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  #112  
Old 08-01-2007, 08:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G10 View Post
Though fair do's, if I ever see Ferre, I will throw him in the nearest lake and baptise that mutha
Don't even THINK about doing this without a video camera in hand.
 
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  #113  
Old 08-01-2007, 08:41 AM
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OK, lets take it a bit further......

God is god, lets pretend he/she exists for sure for a minute. (not saying he/she does or doesn't, so don't bite my head off)

Do you not think he/she will be wondering, how the hell did i get here, someone must be looking over me? This is when he's not having a look at whats going on down here. (Amsterdam red light district i bet... LOL)

Does he/she have some friends to go the the big beer garden in the sky and watch the football with? (it's must always be sunny enough to sit outside there)

If God exists, something else must exist as well. (and dont say the devil...)
 
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  #114  
Old 08-01-2007, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
If God exists, something else must exist as well.
How did you arrive at this conclusion?
 
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  #115  
Old 08-01-2007, 08:48 AM
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I think it sounds like a "chicken and the egg" thing.

If God exists, someone or something must have created God. Who or What?
 
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  #116  
Old 08-01-2007, 08:52 AM
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Well, what did god do before he created all this down here?

Unless everyone's definition of God is completely wrong and it's just the rest of the universe and not a supernatural being.

Where did this being, supernatural or whatever, come from. Why can't we have come from the same place as them?

It all has a start middle and end. no one knows where to start.
 
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  #117  
Old 08-01-2007, 08:52 AM
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GOD is omnipotent, powerful.....Creator of mankind and whole universe.. As what sleepyhead said the Alpha and Omega...
 
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  #118  
Old 08-01-2007, 09:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by briggidere View Post
It all has a start middle and end. no one knows where to start.
Not true, what if time itself had a begining, or, was created? One can only base this if time was non-tangible and yet it seems like time is tangible.

Scientists believe that nothing, not light or even time can escape from a black hole, this makes time tangible which means that it is possible that even time may have had a beginning.

A simpler explanation would be to read works by Stephen Hawking (A brief history of time) as this will help people understand time a little better.
 
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  #119  
Old 08-01-2007, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zap View Post

If God exists, someone or something must have created God.


There are some who would argue this line, but the conclusion is not supported by a logical argument.

People can argue, is the universe exists, then it had to be created by somebody, an argument better applied to life than to the universe (life is infinitely more complex than the universe). I guess that would be the 747 argument.

Quote:
probability of life originating on earth is no greater than the chance that a hurricane sweeping through a scrap-yard would have the luck to assemble a Boeing 747"
(Dawkins responded to this by saying that living organisms developed through cumulative steps to their current level of complexity. The argument misses the point. We are not discussing the complexity of organisms, but the very complexity and absolute improbability of life. In the history of the universe, life has never randomly occurred.)

Back to the "God must have a creator" argument.

It assumes that God is a physical being subject to our physical laws, despite the fact that most "Supreme Being" arguments attribute an extra-physical nature to the Big Guy.
 
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  #120  
Old 08-01-2007, 10:27 AM
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All creationist arguments must deal with the question: "where did the creator come from?" Was it/he/she always present? Is it turtles all the way down? Did some energetic or biological process create a being that had omnipotence? Will the creator always be there? Is the creator infinite? These questions lie directly in the scope of metaphysics. They are questions that we have neither no, or at best indirect, physical evidence nor incorrigible logical arguments for. These arguments also apply to atheism, because that view represents more or less the negation of theism or embedded universal intelligence or force. The atheist then has to answer the question "why is there no creator or universal force that guides the universe?" The atheist and the theist are essentially in the same position when it comes to metaphysical questions of existence. So why do they argue so much? To speak in gross generalizations, both sides think or "believe" they know the "truth." Neither side actually knows anything regarding the answers to these questions.
 
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