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  #121  
Old 08-01-2007, 10:34 AM
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All creationist arguments must deal with the question: "where did the creator come from?"
Not at all. I couldn't imagine a person stupid enough to try to answer that.
 
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  #122  
Old 08-01-2007, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by ewomack View Post
All creationist arguments must deal with the question: "where did the creator come from?" Was it/he/she always present? Is it turtles all the way down? Did some energetic or biological process create a being that had omnipotence? Will the creator always be there? Is the creator infinite? These questions lie directly in the scope of metaphysics. They are questions that we have neither no, or at best indirect, physical evidence nor incorrigible logical arguments for. These arguments also apply to atheism, because that view represents more or less the negation of theism or embedded universal intelligence or force. The atheist then has to answer the question "why is there no creator or universal force that guides the universe?" The atheist and the theist are essentially in the same position when it comes to metaphysical questions of existence. So why do they argue so much? To speak in gross generalizations, both sides think or "believe" they know the "truth." Neither side actually knows anything regarding the answers to these questions.
Way to go Ed.!

What are we going to argue about now!

Maybe we should just ignore him, he doesn't really exist anyway.
 
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  #123  
Old 08-01-2007, 11:09 AM
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watley watley is offline
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I still want to know about that burrito.
 
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  #124  
Old 08-01-2007, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Scott View Post
Everything in the physical world is subject the the law of cause and effect.
The fact that you believe in free will would seem to indicate that you believe in a non-physical dimension. Oh how Dawkins would be disappointed in you.

Yes, I do realize there's a non physical demension, and where did you get the idea that I care what Dawkins thinks about that?

Dawkins has a few theories I agree with, and he also has a few theories that I do not agree with. Like I have with you too. Some of your theories I can agree with, some other theories not.

Don't forget that I have experienced demensions we do not find in our daily life, don't forget that even scientific research has found that certain entheogens, like DMT, open the mind to other demensions than the physical one. dawkins does not have that experience, and therefor he cannot know for sure.

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In the history of the universe, life has never randomly occurred.
Says who? Has the universe been totally researched now? that's news to me. Again, you display assumptions as if they are fact.

 
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  #125  
Old 08-01-2007, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by G10 View Post
mvandermar, thing is, we should respect his views and it is wrong to say that just because Ferre didn't experience anything, that he lied to himself.
I'm sorry G10, but it doesn't really look like you understood at all what I was saying. I was completely correct in what I said, and it had nothing to do with whether or not God exists.

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Originally Posted by John Scott View Post
We are not discussing the complexity of organisms, but the very complexity and absolute improbability of life.
It is impossible for anyone, regardless of how compelling their arguments may sound, to put an actual value on the "improbability" of live.

We know exactly two facts:

1) Life did happen.
2) It might not have been inevitable.

This puts the exact value of the probability at 0%<{LIFE}<=100%. Big range there, not a damn thing to narrow it down either.

BTW - Anyone here up to date on the fact that string theory currently puts us at having 11 dimensions? Or know anything about the guy who is trying to prove retro causality?

-Michael
 
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  #126  
Old 08-01-2007, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by John Scott View Post
Not at all. I couldn't imagine a person stupid enough to try to answer that.
Another form of the question could be: "why are there beings rather than nothing?" Assuming a supreme being is a being, the question includes Him/Her/It within it. Many people have studied that question, of course they don't pretend to answer it. But I think those two questions are fundamental to everything else. "Why is there not nothing" and "If there is a supreme being, why does it exist" are beyond our reach but very important questions to at least ponder.
 
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  #127  
Old 08-01-2007, 02:03 PM
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Questions about God existance will always be asked...but, IMO, the answer is pretty simple:
- from a believer point of view, God does exist
- but from a non-believer point of view (like mine) God does not exists.

Simple as that...
 
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  #128  
Old 08-01-2007, 02:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mvandemar View Post
Well, either you lied to yourself or to us when you said that you were free to believe what you want, or you lied when you said you actually gave a serious attempt to this exercise. "It felt like I was trying to imagine"? You equate that with actually allowing yourself to believe?
The question was not if we are free to believe what we want, the question was if we have free will or not.

I think I can do both, I can believe whatever I want, and I have free will also. I did not lie to anyone when I reported my experience, this was my experience. As I see it, I do have the free will to make any decision I want, and one of the decisions I made long time ago is to not believe in phantoms, The fact that I did not experienced to have a full and unconditional believe in the existence of this imaginable supreme being is simply because this imaginable supreme being can not be experienced. I can only give myself the illusion of this experience, which isn't exactly experiencing it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mvandemar View Post
See, that's not true, on multiple levels. You don't know nearly as much as you think when it comes to your own mind or anyone else's. You have convinced yourself in your mind, despite what logic actually does tell you, that lack of personal experience equates to the solid conclusion that something does not exist. You can't get much more delusional than that. I would love to see you attempt to put that into some sort of formal proof.
I don't even go there, you assume way too much.



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Originally Posted by mvandemar View Post
Ok, do you not realize that the only difference really between what most other people call god and what you just described is that you think that the energy you described doesn't have consciousness? The belief of the existence of "the energy source that feeds us all" indicates a belief that goes beyond the physical world, and is what allows for the possibility of life after death, etc.

Try talking to this energy for a couple months.

-Michael

Give me some proof that this energy has concious and designed the universe and I will archive it in my "real" archives.

As I sayd before, I do not believe that there are more demensions than what we experience in the physical world, I know there are. I have been there.

Still, I have never found any proof of an intelligent designer in the metaphysical world, besides my own mind that is.


Last edited by Ferre; 08-01-2007 at 02:48 PM. Reason: typos (must have left a couple more I guess)
 
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  #129  
Old 08-01-2007, 02:47 PM
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Note that English is not my native language, therefor I use a simplified way of expressing myself in this language, if we were to have this discussion in my own language I would be able to express what I actually mean in much more depth and details and it would be a lot more nuanced. I simply do not have adequate knowledge of the English language to be talking in-depth philosophy, however, I do try to be as accurate as my limited knowledge allows me.
 
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  #130  
Old 08-01-2007, 02:59 PM
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Ferre dude, you keep up this crap and I will..... Well, read post 111
 
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  #131  
Old 08-01-2007, 03:18 PM
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Personally, I think the "who created God" question is letting things get out of hand.
The buck has to stop somewhere.

I do believe, though, that life is not so random. There is no proof of this theory yet, as Earth is the only inhabited planet that we are aware of. But I believe in the strength and resilience of life and that leads to it happening wherever and whenever possible.
 
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  #132  
Old 08-01-2007, 03:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robert s. View Post
life in general is so complicated, has so many traps and chances to f*** up - only a woman could have organized this!
A book was published about all of this. It's called "God is a Woman" by Ian Coburn. Really, there is a book by that name.
 
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  #133  
Old 08-01-2007, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ewomack View Post
both sides think or "believe" they know the "truth." Neither side actually knows anything regarding the answers to these questions.
You are mistaken. People like me do not know or think we know the truth. We are very well aware that no one can possibly know because there is no evidence whatsoever. We are comfortable with the fact that we don't know and that science hasn't found an answer yet and do not need to hold on to beliefs to comfort our peace of mind.

I stated many times that I, and most atheist I know, do not claim there is no god. We just say we don't believe in a god and that there's no evidence for the existing of a god/creator, as described in the Abrahamic scriptures.

In fact, when you look at religious history, and the first part of the movie Zeitgeist shows this very clearly without the need to do all the research yourself, it doesn't invite one to believe in deities invented by various cultures.

I study cultural and political anthropology since the past 25+ years and I look at religions from an antropological point of view, I do not feel any affiliation with most of the known religions but I do feel affiliation with my ancient roots, which are shamanic/druidic based, not abrahamic.

See, I am an atheist because I do not believe in the Abrahamic concept of god and I do not feel affiliated with all the scriptures that come with it, but that does not at all mean that I do not have a religion, or that I do not maintain a so called spiritual life. I think I lead a very healthy spiritual life if you ask me.
 
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  #134  
Old 08-01-2007, 04:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferre View Post
The question was not if we are free to believe what we want, the question was if we have free will or not.
Ok, aside from language barriers and other posts you may be confused about, the exact question that you answered "yes" to was this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by mvandemar View Post
Ferre, do you have free will? Do you have the power to think and believe whatever you like, for instance?
Now, you need to look real close at what you are saying here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferre View Post
I can believe whatever I want
You completely restate what you said "yes" to, and then:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferre View Post
The fact that I did not experienced to have a full and unconditional believe in the existence of this imaginable supreme being is simply because this imaginable supreme being can not be experienced.
The belief in the being has nothing whatsoever to do with him actually existing. I did not ask you to experience God, I asked you to experience believing in him. The belief exists solely in your own mind, beliefs themselves have no material existence. As a product purely of thought you should have no problem re-creating this in your own head. The problem is that you are so conditioned to think a certain way that you can't seem to let go and allow yourself to do it.

There are thousands of things that you believe in that you have never personally experienced or seen proof of, that you take for granted they exist based purely on faith. Experiencing something is not required to believe that it exists.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferre View Post
... designed the universe... intelligent designer...
I never said anything about what role God played, tossing in the fact that there can be no god because you do not believe he created the universe completely distracts from what I said.

-Michael
 
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  #135  
Old 08-01-2007, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by mvandemar View Post
Since I don't have a bible handy, could you let me know what it actually says on destiny please? Thanks.
In a nut shell, it basically shows that a persons future is in their own hands and not a predetermined path but you can probably see that from what I listed earlier.

Sorry, I was just re-reading through this thread and kind of hoping I had answered that question for you
 
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  #136  
Old 08-01-2007, 06:52 PM
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mvandemar, I see you are fond of word games and I can get along with that. What I do not get along with is the many assumptions you make about me and what I do and do not know to be real.

As for re-creating this in my own mind, there is no such thing as RE-creating this in my mind, as I have never created it in my mind before, I also found it to be quite absurd, which didn't improve the 'believe' experience.


I asked you a question too though. Are you familiar with other than Christian based spiritual practises? have you ever used LSD, DMT or Ayahuaska?
It could no more be explained adequately with words than could love-making be explained to the inexperienced virgin. You have to “go there” to understand it in fullness. That's why I ask.
 
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  #137  
Old 08-01-2007, 07:36 PM
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You're running a double standard Ferre. You say....

Quote:
The fact that I did not experienced to have a full and unconditional believe in the existence of this imaginable supreme being is simply because this imaginable supreme being can not be experienced.


Then say....

Quote:
have you ever used LSD, DMT or Ayahuaska? It could no more be explained adequately with words than could love-making be explained to the inexperienced virgin. You have to “go there” to understand it in fullness. That's why I ask.


In the first statement you're speaking of what you don't know. I have experienced Him as have millions upon millions of others. You admit yourself in the second statement that someone without the experience cannot make judgments about whether there is an experience or what it includes without going there. If you've never experienced what I have how can you assume to deny or confirm anything about it?
 
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  #138  
Old 08-01-2007, 07:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferre View Post
mvandemar, I see you are fond of word games and I can get along with that.
I am not playing word games...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferre View Post
As for re-creating this in my own mind, there is no such thing as RE-creating this in my mind, as I have never created it in my mind before,
You are though. You could easily have dropped the "re-", which was unintentional and completely irrelevant to what I was saying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferre View Post
What I do not get along with is the many assumptions you make about me and what I do and do not know to be real.
What I am saying about you is not assumption, it is fact. Unfortunately, I don't know how to convey to you the truth. You seem to be under the impression that I am disagreeing with you because you don't believe in God. That tells me that you have very little understanding about what I am actually discussing here.

And since I actually thought I was being very clear in what I said, I'm afraid that I have no clue how to explain it to you.

You have the power, whether you know it or not, to make yourself believe absolutely anything you want. It doesn't have to exist, it doesn't have to even have any sort of reference in 4 dimensional reality. It doesn't matter if it's absurd, realistic, abstract, or only a vague impression. It does take practice, but saying "I can't believe something, because I don't already believe in it" is one of the biggest cop outs for not trying I have ever heard.

So, sorry Ferre, if you do get to the point where you actually understand what I said, then let me know.

-Michael
 
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  #139  
Old 08-01-2007, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Ferre View Post
See, I am an atheist because I do not believe in the Abrahamic concept of god and I do not feel affiliated with all the scriptures that come with it, but that does not at all mean that I do not have a religion, or that I do not maintain a so called spiritual life. I think I lead a very healthy spiritual life if you ask me.[/COLOR]
If this is your position, then I wouldn't consider you an atheist. But the word has many usages. The atheists I know believe that there isn't a God with the same fervor that theists believe there is one. As I said, I was speaking in gross generalizations. Atheists aren't a very organized or coherent group. Hopefully they'll stay that way.
 
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  #140  
Old 08-01-2007, 10:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Zap View Post
Personally, I think the "who created God" question is letting things get out of hand.
The buck has to stop somewhere.
I agree that the buck has to stop somewhere. All explanations must come to end at some point (unless infinite causes do exist, and I hope they don't). But since this discussion involves the nature and existence of God, the buck shouldn't stop with God.
 
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