Global Warming is a Hoax

[South]

Originally Posted by StrongInTheArm

I don't know that I agree with you that government should not take the lead. Who can pass the laws, fund the research and development and reach global agreements? Not individuals.

When you're wrong you're really, really wrong. That's the most government-owned mindset statement you've made yet. Government laws? Pouring tax funded, ill-managed funds into studying what-ifs? NOT INDIVIDUALS?

I wish you would do an exercise, just for fun. Spend at least one evening imagining that the government wasn't god and wasn't there to solve all your problems. What if the country was new, you just got off the boat and things had to be dealt with. Nobody is going to pass a government mandate to appease one side or the other, nobody is going to force money from some people then spend it to fund what other people want funded.

How would you live in a world where nobody was coming to save you?

Yes, if there are real problems, individuals are exactly the ones to handle it, and the less government involvement the better. The vast majority of advances and solutions in our civilization didn't come from government mandates, government control, taxation, or government "leading the way". They came from brilliant, entrepreneurial individuals who risked their reputations, securities and fortunes to address the problems of mankind.

If there is a problem, in reality..not theory, then serious individuals will do the serious work and come up with serious solutions. Government, most of the time, is a bureaucracy of he said-she said, and who gets the most kickbacks. You want solutions? If you're looking to the government for them then you've either been asleep for the past couple of decades or your mind has been melted into buying empty promises that yield nothing.

Government, not the individual? Let me guess. An Obama supporter?

[StrongInTheArm]

Originally Posted by South

When you're wrong you're really, really wrong. That's the most government-owned mindset statement you've made yet. Government laws? Pouring tax funded, ill-managed funds into studying what-ifs? NOT INDIVIDUALS?

I wish you would do an exercise, just for fun. Spend at least one evening imagining that the government wasn't god and wasn't there to solve all your problems. What if the country was new, you just got off the boat and things had to be dealt with. Nobody is going to pass a government mandate to appease one side or the other, nobody is going to force money from some people then spend it to fund what other people want funded.

How would you live in a world where nobody was coming to save you?

Yes, if there are real problems, individuals are exactly the ones to handle it, and the less government involvement the better. The vast majority of advances and solutions in our civilization didn't come from government mandates, government control, taxation, or government "leading the way". They came from brilliant, entrepreneurial individuals who risked their reputations, securities and fortunes to address the problems of mankind.

If there is a problem, in reality..not theory, then serious individuals will do the serious work and come up with serious solutions. Government, most of the time, is a bureaucracy of he said-she said, and who gets the most kickbacks. You want solutions? If you're looking to the government for them then you've either been asleep for the past couple of decades or your mind has been melted into buying empty promises that yield nothing.

Government, not the individual? Let me guess. An Obama supporter?

We are getting a little off topic here are we not?

So your preference would have been to let New Orleans fend for itself after Katrina then? No? Is there anything governments are good for?

[South]

Originally Posted by StrongInTheArm

We are getting a little off topic here are we not?

So your preference would have been to let New Orleans fend for itself after Katrina then? No? Is there anything governments are good for?

Disaster control was the responsibility of the government. How did that work out for you? Starting to get it now? You're making my point for me. Government involvement would be fine for aftermath relief, but honestly they've screwed that up just as badly by allowing all the things to take place that cldnails mentions above.

What if instead of pouring a states tax funds into a government managed emergency management system (that gets you results like Katrina), you instead cut those taxes and let cities and states hire private emergency management firms? These would be firms competing with others in the marketplace. They would have accountability, competition, and the quest for contracts would result in excellence. The best firms would get the contracts, the incompetent ones would die like any other inadequate service in the private sector.

With this competition comes innovation, new ideas. Instead of the government allowing things to pass as "good enough", you've got a contracted company looking for new ways to improve their worth and decrease their liability. They're thinking and planning better levy systems, ingenious drainage ideas, better ways to both prevent and react to emergencies. The fact is that if New Orleans had been under such a system, it's extremely likely that Katrina would have caused substantially less impact. That's how the private sector works every single day.

Instead, you have taxes forced from you to pay for a system inadequate enough to botch the very instance you gave above, and since it's a government monopoly, you have nowhere else to go.

Here's another, more recent example of your government services hard at work.

How long do you think she would have had a job for a private emergency firm? She would have been fired years ago and that lady would be alive today.

[thegamerslink]

Originally Posted by South

When you're wrong you're really, really wrong. That's the most government-owned mindset statement you've made yet. Government laws? Pouring tax funded, ill-managed funds into studying what-ifs? NOT INDIVIDUALS?

I wish you would do an exercise, just for fun. Spend at least one evening imagining that the government wasn't god and wasn't there to solve all your problems. What if the country was new, you just got off the boat and things had to be dealt with. Nobody is going to pass a government mandate to appease one side or the other, nobody is going to force money from some people then spend it to fund what other people want funded.

How would you live in a world where nobody was coming to save you?

Yes, if there are real problems, individuals are exactly the ones to handle it, and the less government involvement the better. The vast majority of advances and solutions in our civilization didn't come from government mandates, government control, taxation, or government "leading the way". They came from brilliant, entrepreneurial individuals who risked their reputations, securities and fortunes to address the problems of mankind.

If there is a problem, in reality..not theory, then serious individuals will do the serious work and come up with serious solutions. Government, most of the time, is a bureaucracy of he said-she said, and who gets the most kickbacks. You want solutions? If you're looking to the government for them then you've either been asleep for the past couple of decades or your mind has been melted into buying empty promises that yield nothing.

Government, not the individual? Let me guess. An Obama supporter?

Not that this completely relates, but back in the 80's when I was still in the Navy, we pulled into port, I was on a reserve ship so durring 95% of the time we the active duty crew had to do it all. We were securing the lines and the Senior Chief Boats told us to take them to power, this meant putting the lines on wenches to pull us in even tighter, a thing we didn't often do, he said we may be getting a storm. The next day we got hit with an extremely strong storm, it caused flooding in a compartment, and some other various problem, we took care of the problems as the storm ensued, seemed like an hour but was probably only 10-15 minutes at the most. Then the storm began to calm down to just a standard rain. About 5 minutes later a flash came over the radio letting us know a severe storm was coming towards our area.

This is how the government works, all the red tape, the left hands and the multiple in charges that want to be involved makes it impossible for anything to get done in a timely competent manner. Not that government is a completely and totally bad thing, it does have it's purpose, but, it definitely shouldn't be involved in a very many things.

[cldnails]

SITA, it looks like you are having trouble grasping the difference between a compelling article and FACTS, the difference between absolute and speculation. It looks like my description was spot on, seeing as you want the government to take care of you. At this point it's becoming quite obvious where you stand and in fact this position will probably change in another 20 to 30 years when there is some other impending doom to fear and consumers to tax.

[cldnails]

SITA, how could you possible compare a National Disaster to throwing money at a 'theory'. Besides, NO, I do not think our government handled the situation well. For all those too dense to evacuate when they were told to and instead looted, they should have been hauled off to prison. Furthermore, the money given to the individuals were wasted on those who feel like they are 'owed' something, which is your mentality.

The government owes us nothing and the more government intervention the more stifling creatively our market becomes. Again, I'll refer back to my post of this mindset is the reason the global warming crowd has so many followers, because they think with their heart and want mommy to take care of them. I'm just not sure of a better way to put it.

[StrongInTheArm]

Let me get this right!

You don't want a democratically elected government to look after you cos all your elected officials are not people from your own country and you can't hold them accountable, oh no, they are aliens from the planet LooniLibs. Instead your preference is for a set of unrepresentative sugar daddies to look after you instead. Yes, of course, the rich always have your best interests at heart don't they?

Sorry to disagree with you children, but I'm going with the democratically elected government cos even if I didn't vote for them, at least there is a majority of voters that did. If nothing else, history has taught us that it may be imperfect, but its the best system that works.

You guys need a slogan, how about: "Leave it to MacDonalds, they've got your best interests at heart!"

[South]

Originally Posted by StrongInTheArm

Let me get this right!

You don't want a democratically elected government to look after you cos all your elected officials are not people from your own country and you can't hold them accountable, oh no, they are aliens from the planet LooniLibs. Instead your preference is for a set of unrepresentative sugar daddies to look after you instead. Yes, of course, the rich always have your best interests at heart don't they?

Sorry to disagree with you children, but I'm going with the democratically elected government cos even if I didn't vote for them, at least there is a majority of voters that did. If nothing else, history has taught us that it may be imperfect, but its the best system that works.

You guys need a slogan, how about: "Leave it to MacDonalds, they've got your best interests at heart!"

You really have swallowed the government koolaid haven't you? That's fine. I don't blame you, from your comments I see that you really don't understand. Lots of people have been able to make a compelling argument of "give me your freedom and I'll take care of you". Where would dictators be without someone willing to follow them?

"The rich have your best interests at heart"? Where business is concerned the rich have money at heart. Competition for money breeds results. That's my point. Free market? Ring a bell?

For kicks you should read this some time. It'll be a novel read for a guy like you.

http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html

Nobody said the government doesn't work. It does what it's supposed to do great.

Not sure what the McDonalds statement is about, so I'll leave that one alone.

[South]

Originally Posted by StrongInTheArm

You don't want a democratically elected government to look after you

Don't want the government to look after you. That kills me. Sorry.

[cldnails]

Originally Posted by StrongInTheArm

Let me get this right!

You don't want a democratically elected government to look after you cos all your elected officials are not people from your own country and you can't hold them accountable, oh no, they are aliens from the planet LooniLibs. Instead your preference is for a set of unrepresentative sugar daddies to look after you instead. Yes, of course, the rich always have your best interests at heart don't they?

Sorry to disagree with you children, but I'm going with the democratically elected government cos even if I didn't vote for them, at least there is a majority of voters that did. If nothing else, history has taught us that it may be imperfect, but its the best system that works.

You guys need a slogan, how about: "Leave it to MacDonalds, they've got your best interests at heart!"

/sound of airplane making flyby

[South]

Originally Posted by StrongInTheArm

Sorry to disagree with you children, but I'm going with the democratically elected government cos even if I didn't vote for them, at least there is a majority of voters that did. If nothing else, history has taught us that it may be imperfect, but its the best system that works.

You guys need a slogan, how about: "Leave it to MacDonalds, they've got your best interests at heart!"

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're a brit? Here I am trying to save you from yourself and I find out you're just another brit who thinks you know more about America than Americans? That would explain your liberalism and government dependence. Am I right about the brit thing?

[StrongInTheArm]

Originally Posted by South

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're a brit? ...

Why thanks for noticing, yes I am a 'Brit'!

Originally Posted by South

... you're just another brit who thinks you know more about America than Americans? ...

Not at all. However I have been trying to understand you crazy Americans since college where I studied American Politics for a year. I guess that's why I'm here ultimately still trying to understand some of you crazy Americans.

Originally Posted by South

...
That would explain your liberalism and government dependence. Am I right about the brit thing?

The Tories (conservatives) were in power before your Constitution was written. We know a thing or two about the politics of all persuasions over here. Its called the Mother of Parliaments for a reason.

BTW the thread is called "Global Warming is a Hoax". Last I checked the UK was still on the globe. Of course it was you and cldnails that wanted to explore this area within this thread, I did point out that the thread was going off topic but you persisted. I was just being polite, as we 'Brits' are prone to be.

I'm not entirely sure what you are getting at. Are you saying that as a 'Brit' I should refrain from commenting on questions put to me by yourselves about American politics?

[South]

Originally Posted by StrongInTheArm

I'm not entirely sure what you are getting at. Are you saying that as a 'Brit' I should refrain from commenting on questions put to me by yourselves about American politics?

No, not at all. It just gives me a whole new point of reference by understanding where you're coming from. Since I know that your entire understanding of our political system comes from a book being taught in the UK, I don't need to get frustrated with you.

My problem was trying to understand how you could live here and still think that way. It made no sense. Now it does. I don't mean that condescendingly. I have my thoughts about the UK system as well.

[D3n!ss3_gÜrL]

^ then there goes the clashings!

[bauger]

Have any of you watched the hbo program penn and teller does. They do a whole thing on global warming evenrecycling which is quite entertaining

Bruno

[peterbndrs]

what ever the root cause for global warming is, but if necessary measures are not taken, then one day we all will be sufferers for sure.

[cldnails]

/makes another flyby noise.

Are you sure you studied politics at college? I'd want to get my money back if I were you. It's a distinction between ideals, everything you mention revolves around socialist ideals, hence you being a brit.

Conservatives like to take care of themselves and not rely on powers that be. The ideal of redistributing wealth to take care of a theory and rely on government intervention to 'fix' a 'maybe' is what a socialists do. You do know what kind of government you have right?

[Zap]

Originally Posted by South

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're a brit? Here I am trying to save you from yourself and I find out you're just another brit who thinks you know more about America than Americans? That would explain your liberalism and government dependence. Am I right about the brit thing?

Originally Posted by cldnails

Are you sure you studied politics at college? I'd want to get my money back if I were you. It's a distinction between ideals, everything you mention revolves around socialist ideals, hence you being a brit.

What's with the "Brit" thing? If you guys are going to disregard or otherwise discount the comments made by others based on their nationality, then perhaps you could post a list of countries whose citizens you will take seriously and countries whose citizens you will not?

Since you're both moderators here, maybe one of you could make a new thread out of it and make it a sticky thread? That way, we could just lookup our country before posting here and govern ourselves accordingly.

Originally Posted by cldnails

Conservatives like to take care of themselves and not rely on powers that be.

Regardless of whether or not the issue affects only them, yeah, I've noticed that.
Caring about others doesn't have to involve huge governments with lots of taxes.

[South]

Originally Posted by Zap

What's with the "Brit" thing? If you guys are going to disregard or otherwise discount the comments made by others based on their nationality, then perhaps you could post a list of countries whose citizens you will take seriously and countries whose citizens you will not?

My comment about his nationality was to clarify his perspective on American domestic policies as they were being discussed. I thought that would have been clear. Nothing about my comment could have been misconstrued to say that I don't take people from certain countries seriously unless that's just really what you wanted to hear.

If you believe that people with little or no experience with a social condition have as qualified an understanding as those who live among it, then we just disagree. I made it clear that I didn't have a condescending attitude toward him, and explained in the same post that I could now better understand his ideas now that I know they come from an outside observer position.

My comment in no way questioned the value of his opinions on events as they effect the world, only our domestic policy as it effects our daily lives.

[Zap]

Originally Posted by South

If you believe that people with little or no experience with a social condition have as qualified an understanding as those who live among it, then we just disagree. I made it clear that I didn't have a condescending attitude toward him, and explained in the same post that I could now better understand his ideas now that I know they come from an outside observer position.

You tried to make it clear that you weren't trying to be condescending.
But, as has been demonstrated in this very thread, you and other Americans will always be able to relate any/all global scope type topics back to being an American via American politics. At that point, non-Americans couldn't possibly have "as qualified an understanding" of American politics as it relates to the topic at hand.
The way I see it, you've either discounted others or removed yourself from the debate the moment American politics enters the discussion. (And let's face it, with so many of you here, it's going to happen time and time again.)

Originally Posted by South

My comment in no way questioned the value of his opinions on events as they effect the world, only our domestic policy as it effects our daily lives.

Those two topics are intertwined in almost every instance.