US Veterans

[Rankenstein]

I read something absolutely astonishing a couple of days ago. I know that military service can be a traumatic experience, especially if you are called up to go to war but this goes quite beyond the pale in Western society. But first let me say that this post is not about bashing US foreign policy so don't get your knickers in a twist, just look at the numbers.

In 2005, an average of 17 US military veterans committed suicide every day! US vets are twice as likely to commit suicide as civilians, and in the 20-24 age bracket, they are four times more likely than civilians to commit suicide.

More veterans commit suicide than are actually killed by the enemy in Iraq! I'm not sure I can even digest that fact properly. Or that, out of the number of homeless people in America, one in four of them are veterans.

If you really want to read more, there's the Times article on it here:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle2873622.ece
It's worth reading the comments too.

OK, there's some other facts which need mentioning. The article talks about veterans, but don't fall into the trap of thinking they mean Iraq war veterans, they mean all veterans. So when I noted that 1 in 4 homeless people are veterans, less than 1% of those vets were involved in the current Iraq situation.

I say that because you can easily say "what an indictment of Iraq, Dubya, x, y and z" when the numbers show that it isn't actually much to do with that. So fight the temptation to rant, please.

Finally, I read something that weirded me even more. In Japan, the suicide rate averages out at one every fifteen minutes. Four an hour. About ninety a day! WTF is going on over there?

[Zap]

It's not just the Bush administration, as you pointed out.
The US government has a long history of treating it's veterans with a lot less respect than they deserve.
Puzzling behaviour, actually, when you consider the fact that the veterans are literally making sure that the government gets to continue existing.

[Pretend]

I hate these topics. I want to reply so bad, but I feel like if I do I'll come off as conceeded or something. Bleh.

[Rankenstein]

Spit it out, Pretend!

[cldnails]

There is no question that war is traumatic and can cause certian 'disorders' once the the individuals try to enter civilian life. However, I feel there is a lot more to the story than what this clearly indicates.

Take for example the demographic that recruiters are focused on and get to enlist. Generally poor neighborhoods, with people who probably didn't have a bright out look to begin with. So coupled with the stress of war and the life as an enlisted man/woman brings...I can see it being a factor. However, I strongly feel it's not an accurate representation of how the US deals with it's vets.

The U.S. is the most giving nation in the world. (FACT) I'm still hunting on what percentage of benefits go to Vets, but point being, I feel something has to be broken before it breaks. I've known to many people in and out of the military in some form, who have seen stressful times, but came out stronger.

[John Scott]

Originally Posted by Zap

It's not just the Bush administration, as you pointed out.
The US government has a long history of treating it's veterans with a lot less respect than they deserve.
Puzzling behaviour, actually, when you consider the fact that the veterans are literally making sure that the government gets to continue existing.

Why do you think it's the government's fault?

I think it's very likely that veterans know the secret, that justice is a fairy tale, and they understand the fact that most people live in what could be called a "make-believe world".

We like to think that bad things happen to bad people, and good things happen to good people. Our security depends upon it. We don't want to believe that at any given time of day or night, somebody could come into our houses, rip the heads off our children, rape our wives and eat them with cheese on Ritz crackers.

Life, the materialistic form that we know and TV seems to love, becomes a bit stupid when you know the amount of suffering that happens in this world.

My grandfather was a vet from WW2, Marine, and he saw some nasty action in the Pacific but he absolutely refused to talk about it. He'd just say "it wasn't human". I think he meant, it was extremely brutal.

Will counseling change the fact that the world is full of injustice and suffering? No. I think the suggestion is silly. My brother commit suicide and it was no shock to anybody that knew him. He was super sensitive. He tried to commit suicide once after accidentally killing a deer. (Damn deer was standing on the highway in the middle of the night, and my brother hit the brakes a bit too late. Who knows - maybe the deer was trying to commit suicide?) If people get all shook up over a deer being killed, how do you think they will react to humans being ran over by tanks? Or the tragedy of "friendly fire" deaths?

As far as stopping suicide... why? I often think about my brother, and for the most part I don't think I would have stopped him if I could. He didn't like the way the world worked, and wanted off. If somebody wants off, let them off. Why keep them in pain? What treatment would you suggest? Perhaps a course of materialism and debauchery? Get your mind off the state of reality and get laid. That would fix them up.

Naw, let them go. I have more respect for a lot of people who have committed suicide than I do for the living who choose to not face reality in order to make it livable.

Originally Posted by Rankenstein

Finally, I read something that weirded me even more. In Japan, the suicide rate averages out at one every fifteen minutes. Four an hour. About ninety a day! WTF is going on over there?

I asked Reiko who is here in the office and she stated: Because they want to die.

Insightful.

Japanese are not the most likely to commit suicide. Lithuania has that honor. Russia has more suicides per capita than Japan, too.

In Japan, honor is still very important. Suicide is seen as taking responsibility for one's mistakes, and it means you keep your honor. Often times people will commit suicide when their wrongdoing has been discovered - it clears the slate and the family honor remains intact.

[CapsLOCK]

Suicide is the the greatest sin in any culture.

[cldnails]

Originally Posted by CapsLOCK

Suicide is the the greatest sin in any culture.

Kind of contradicts what John just said doesn't it. But I'm curious, how do you know this?

[Rankenstein]

Originally Posted by CapsLOCK

Suicide is the the greatest sin in any culture.

No, it isn't. Is it worse than rape? Genocide? Priests abusing kiddies? Serial killers? Stop talking rubbish.

[South]

Originally Posted by Rankenstein

No, it isn't. Is it worse than rape? Genocide? Priests abusing kiddies? Serial killers? Stop talking rubbish.

I think he means that from a religious standpoint it's the one thing you can never repent of. It follows that "all suicides go to hell" philosophy which I've never subscribed to.

I don't have a lot of experience with suicide...one family member when I was very young. I personally think that suicide exists mainly if not exclusively with dementia or some sort of mental disorder. I can't wrap my head around the idea of anyone who is mentally stable taking away all their own options.

As far as suicide rates (and homelessness) among vets, I think it stands to reason. It takes a very specific personality to experience war first hand and not have your head effected by it. Most of us live in a comparatively cushy world and war give you no time to acclimate to experiencing mans inhumanity to man. I don't think it's necessarily a strong v/s weak thing.

[intruth]

Originally Posted by Zap

It's not just the Bush administration, as you pointed out.
The US government has a long history of treating it's veterans with a lot less respect than they deserve.
Puzzling behaviour, actually, when you consider the fact that the veterans are literally making sure that the government gets to continue existing.

Very True... Vets should get the best health care and retire in comforts for helping to keep the nation safe and strong...

[upsonians]

The whole thread responds to point out that whether America is doing good or bad with its millitary.I will say army is for defence and it can be used for defensive purposes.Saying that government policy is ot good i don't agree.
Bush took the step of entering army in Afghanistan not for his own benefit but for the whole nation.Similarly in Iraq.BUsh tried to finish up the danger of attacks over America.Noe its the responsibility of American FOrces to get control of these areas.
And american poeple should try to support Bush policy because he is working for their own country.
You can see what Pervaiz Musharraf is doing in Pakistan.He is having army operations against Al-Qaeda and in the last few years operation Pakistan Army lost more then 3500 soldiers including officers.SO should we try to oppose Musharraf, i think not!!although some extremists are against Musharraf strategy and are supporting Taliban's but i will say they are on the wrong track.
You see after the attack on Afghanistan what people were thinking about? they were saying that America is going to get a nestle in Asia but i think what American forces did in Afghanistan is appreciable.They developed a country which has never seen any development.
Hospitals with latest medical equipments and schools and really i have seen all these my self.And i was surprised to see all of these changes.The credit of regime change of Afghan leader ship goes to Bush and US army.
I will say that no one is perfect Bush policies may have some faults but i think they are not so much big issue which can creat any problem.

Regards:

Arif

[John Scott]

Very balanced viewpoint, upsonians.

[upsonians]

Thanks John Scott.Infact its all truth but some people are not aware of them.SO we should try to put the reality infront of them, so that no one else can point out this issue.Thanks.

Regards:

Arif