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  #21  
Old 07-11-2008, 10:41 AM
Franc Tireur Franc Tireur is offline
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I never being illegal emmigrant and went to the all process. Never being in US for jobs either.

I think it is a very difficult subject. Most of illegal emmigrants come from poor countries, why not give them a chance with a temporary work authorization when labour is needed for jobs that Americans don't want to do? They will participate in the system, pay their taxes, etc...

Last edited by Franc Tireur; 07-11-2008 at 10:45 AM.
 
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  #22  
Old 07-11-2008, 10:58 AM
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For some reason, and I am having a very difficult time understanding it, many people feel that we should have no structure, no laws about things, that children shouldn't be disciplined while they are growing up. There are so many things that I could bring up I can't even think of them all. I mean people who's primary language is Spanish think that our schools and all of our businesses should start presenting everything in Spanish to accomodate them. Many Muslims think that since they are now living here they should be granted foot washing fountains in major public areas, cab drivers that apply for special airport licenses, something there is a limited number of, should be able to then dictate after that what they will and will not do. An attitude of I'm now here in America and you should change your heritage and culture to mine, I don't like your's has flooded our country. And the amount of people that look at their own country and want it to be a different country are just mind boggling to me.

In the 1800's and early 1900's the Irish immigrant was treated as a less than human species and was forced to work in sweat shops for drastically less than anyone else. To get anything they had to work 4 times as hard and usually ended up with less than half anyone else would have. Many immigrants found themselves victims of debt contractors. These people would lend money to immigrants with for knowledge of their inability to pay it back, and often times even insured they couldn't so that they were then forced to work for the debtor as almost a personal slave until the debt was repaid. Often it was the children of a family being forced to pay off the debts for their fathers.

There are laws and there is structure in order to prevent injustices to people from not only the government, but also by those out there that have a sole purpose in feeding on the innocent or needy. The immigration laws that we have now, while far from perfected are the result of the experiences of a couple centuries as well as accounting for changing times. Actually those coming to America looking for the dwindling American dream can actually get help from the government to not only help them stay alive and healthy while trying to achieve it, but also get special funding from the government and businesses to help them start something for themselves. Whether it's money to go to school to learn english and American History, or it's money to open a 7/11, or construction company, or drama school, or whatever it is they want to do. If they don't follow the laws they miss out on all that this country does have to offer it's incoming citizens and then are likely to never find that elusive American Dream. They are also likely to find themselves victims of those that prey on the lesser fortunate, or may even resort to crime to get what it is they need.

Parents of children nowadays also feel that it is wrong for a school, or for themselves to discipline their children, I don't know if this stems from how they got mad at being made to behave when they were kids or what, but the downfall of our culture in this country isn't so much being caused by the immigrant that is coming here seeking opportunity, but by an entire generation of people that have no pride in their country, no pride in fellow man, and in a lot of cases no pride in themselves. Or, they are so self absorbed they don't care what goes on any where else as long as it doesn't interfere with anything they are doing. Responsibility and accountability are something that have been thrown out the window and thrown towards catch all governmental entity that is there to blame when things go wrong. Or to complain about when something gets in the way of what we want.

In a little summary, the immigration process for this country isn't that difficult compared to that of some other countries, and the opportunities presented to the immigrant of this country far exceeds that of Most other countries. So to refuse to follow it, is not just a slap in the face to those that have. But it's also disrespectful of the country and it's people you are seeking the opportunities from. It's not about whether citizens have to spend money on immigrants, it's not about someone getting more than someone else. I mean we are all immigrants, and someone always has something someone else doesn't. It's about Honor, Ethics, Respect and Accountability. It's about our heritage and culture in this country that Hundreds of Thousands have given their lives for and Millions have served to Protect.
 
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  #23  
Old 07-11-2008, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Natural Elements View Post
I never being illegal emmigrant and went to the all process. Never being in US for jobs either.

I think it is a very difficult subject. Most of illegal emmigrants come from poor countries, why not give them a chance with a temporary work authorization when labour is needed for jobs that Americans don't want to do? They will participate in the system, pay their taxes, etc...
I don't think the over whelming feeling of Americans is to not allow immigrants, or that there should be no immigrants. That definitely is not my feelings. But there is an over whelming feeling that those that are here illegally have disrespected the country they are seeking the opportunity from, they have broken the law, they as everyone else would be, and we would be any where else in the world, should be made to pay for breaking the law. Should they be thrown in prison for a year or two? Of course not, but they should be documented as being here illegally, then sent back to their country of origin and then made to re-enter legally in the very least, and in many cases if not all be made to pay some type of restitution as everyone would be if they broke the law. I mean you have to pay a fine if you're speeding right? And if I went to Mexico right now would I be allowed to go without reporting? Would I be allowed to purchase property, get a banking account with a line of credit, open my own business? If I went to Canada, would I not have to file paper work in order to be able to stay for a while and get a job or buy a house and live there? Why is it every country in the world except the United States is allowed to have and enforce immigration laws? What would happen if I went to Pakistan or Saudi Arabia and didn't file paper work, or tried setting up a business or build a house? Would I be able to go homestead in the middle of their desert if that is what I decided to do? The world seems to me to be in a do as I want you to not as I'm doing mode right now when it comes to the U.S. and it's policies and laws. Is that right or fair? Is anyone else being held to even close to the same standards? Is anyone else standing up and excepting responsibility for even a fraction of what this country does towards the rest of the world?
 
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  #24  
Old 07-11-2008, 12:51 PM
Franc Tireur Franc Tireur is offline
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I understand your point.

How the us gov can secure the border more efficiently? Seems like the border cannot be secure for some reasons. We've got the same problem in France, and there is no way another language will be allowed in my country ! I can garantee that

How long does it take to catch millions illegal emmigrants, then send them back to their countries?

Why not helping this people in their own countries? Perhaps less people would be interested to come here if they can find jobs in their own.

What poor countries are doing to avoid illegal emmigrants coming here? Unilateral effort will be not efficient. Countries need to work together.

Like I said ealier this is not a simple subject.
 
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  #25  
Old 07-11-2008, 01:01 PM
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Definitely not a simple subject. As for Mexican immigrants if I am interpreting what I am seeing on the news and hearing in other areas. The Mexican government is actually encouraging and assisting it's citizens to leave Mexico and go to the U.S. It's logical if true, most of the immigrants that do come here for opportunity usually end up sending as much of their income as possible back to their families in Mexico so this is a major influx of free income for their country. If countries were to work together, and all countries got rid of corruption and self absorbtion and actually wanted to retain and help all of their own citizens regardless of what they wanted to do then this would be a much better world I believe. And the immigration issue would be a completely different thing all together.

As for securing the borders in the U.S. this should be one of the highest priorities in todays hostile environment, something it seems the liberals seem to not think they or anyone else should be concerned about. We have the border patrol, they should be better funded to assist them as well as backed up with the National Guard as needed in my opinion. While it's probably impossible to stop all border crossings, it sure would make it a lot more difficult.
 
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  #26  
Old 07-11-2008, 03:02 PM
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Does that mean only the Native American people would remain in the country?
 
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  #27  
Old 07-15-2008, 08:44 PM
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Actually what will happen is businesses would be forced to give decent wage to Americans, which then they can spend on goods, which will pick up the economic. Basically what these businesses are doing are exploiting these illegal immigrants with low wages. These companies pay so low wages to these illegal immigrants that no that no American would work for that /wage s
 
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  #28  
Old 07-16-2008, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by StrongInTheArm View Post
Does that mean only the Native American people would remain in the country?

yeah.. who invaded North America?

Everybody (Whites/Blacks/Asians/Hispanics/Aliens ) should GTFO of North America.
 
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  #29  
Old 07-16-2008, 10:23 AM
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well really the "Native Americans" invaded it from the wilderness that was already here.
 
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  #30  
Old 07-16-2008, 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by thegamerslink View Post
I mean people who's primary language is Spanish think that our schools and all of our businesses should start presenting everything in Spanish to accomodate them. Many Muslims think that since they are now living here they should be granted foot washing fountains in major public areas, cab drivers that apply for special airport licenses, something there is a limited number of, should be able to then dictate after that what they will and will not do. An attitude of I'm now here in America and you should change your heritage and culture to mine, I don't like your's has flooded our country. And the amount of people that look at their own country and want it to be a different country are just mind boggling to me.
To be fair, this is a sort of attitude that the rest of the world feels that the United States pushes onto them.
A lot of American business people don't bother to learn the language of a country they're trading with, with a "they should speak English to do business with me" rhetoric.

Like wise a lot of American ideals and ideologies get pushed onto other countries by economic and cultural imperialism, and in some cases such as Iraq, militarily.

A personal example is simply language usage. When I still used FaceBook, I attempted to target an add at British customers with the word "behaviour" in it. It was consistently getting rejected for poor spelling until I wrote a very vehement letter demanding to know which word was misspelled. They totally ignored the fact that not everyone spells in American English. When I pointed that out, they said I should conform if I wanted to use an American service, even though I was aiming at British users who would also have considered my spelling correct!

Whether or not this is the intention of the American people specifically is not the point. The point is it seems hypocritical to complain about a particular viewpoint when it's exactly the same on the other side of the fence.
 
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  #31  
Old 07-17-2008, 05:41 AM
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Would most American's do the same hours, in the same miserable conditions for the same pay rate as the immigrants?
 
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  #32  
Old 07-17-2008, 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Harveyj View Post
To be fair, this is a sort of attitude that the rest of the world feels that the United States pushes onto them.
A lot of American business people don't bother to learn the language of a country they're trading with, with a "they should speak English to do business with me" rhetoric.

Like wise a lot of American ideals and ideologies get pushed onto other countries by economic and cultural imperialism, and in some cases such as Iraq, militarily.

A personal example is simply language usage. When I still used FaceBook, I attempted to target an add at British customers with the word "behaviour" in it. It was consistently getting rejected for poor spelling until I wrote a very vehement letter demanding to know which word was misspelled. They totally ignored the fact that not everyone spells in American English. When I pointed that out, they said I should conform if I wanted to use an American service, even though I was aiming at British users who would also have considered my spelling correct!

Whether or not this is the intention of the American people specifically is not the point. The point is it seems hypocritical to complain about a particular viewpoint when it's exactly the same on the other side of the fence.
I'm going to basically make my statements as there really isn't any way to talk about such a hot topic as this without someone taking the most well intentioned or inoccent statement either completely the wrong way or throwing it way out of proportion. So here goes....

If I am a business and I wanting to get the business of people outside my own country. I'm going to present my business in their native language to the best of my ability. To expect them to conform to me in order to deal with me is simply bad business. And in my opinion the businesses or customers that deal with such companies have no comprehension of what the "power of the consumer" is or what free trade market is. So much of this is just common sense. So to use the argument I am mad at America because some American businesses think I should change in order to do business with them is just complete hog wash. Actually to my way of thinking that would present an excellent business opportunity to you or someone else in your country. Provide the service to your own country since a business from another country isn't catering to the need.

As for Face Book. FaceBook isn't the most liked and popular vessel because of many things they have not smoothed out. And just out of curiousity, were you trying to target British people via your "Free" FaceBook page or were you paying for advertising? Do you think the outcome would have been any different in the event you were a paying customer rather than a free user?

The subject isn't though about me bringing a business to you or your country and expecting you to conform to do business with me (again very stupid on my part if that is what I did) but the fact that people from other countries come here and expect everyone as well as every business to conform to their needs regardless of our heritage or way of life. And to be honest, I don't see that being allowed to happen if I or other Americans went to Mexico, France, Venezualia, Saudi Arabia, Iraq ( they don't speak english there because we have helped liberate them, they still have their own culture and way of life it's just improving at their own hand) or virtually any other country that english isn't the national language. I doubt that if I go down to Mcdonalds downtown france the cashier is going to speak four different languages or that there are going to be menu's displayed in 15 different languages (except possibly in areas of heavy tourist traffic, since that is their livelyhood and the business catering to their customer base)
 
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  #33  
Old 07-17-2008, 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted by busman3000 View Post
Would most American's do the same hours, in the same miserable conditions for the same pay rate as the immigrants?
Isn't that one of the major reasons an illegal immigrant should be legal is so they won't get taken advantage of and be given the same respect and opportunities that all people should be given? The illegal status makes them subject to be taken advantage of, poor working conditions, poor wages, poor living conditions and more. I mean, when I was a manager at a fast food place as a younger person, I too took the trash out on occassion, it's only fair that the manager be willing to do what it is they ask their employees to do. As a business owner, I often did jobs that I didn't ask my employees to for the simple reason I didn't think it was something I should ask of them, or it didn't hold enough value to justify my paying someone else to do it versus me doing it myself. So your question helps my argument. The answer is simple no, Americans demand more respect than that, and they expect that everyone (or at least most people do) deserve the same.
 
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  #34  
Old 07-20-2008, 06:11 PM
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Gamerslink: That's cool. I'd like to think we're keeping this at an intellectual debate level, so I'm trying to keep hyperbole to a minimum

Yes, you are right. It IS common sense to do business in the language of your host country. But many companies simply do not. They expect others to conform to their own norms.
It's the reason translation services thrive in the States, but don't do so well here or in New Zealand (although oddly enough, Maori isn't the lingua franca there, either).


Re: Facebook, they were PPC ads, so I was a paying customer. The example was basically that of American cultural imperialism, attempting to change (subvert?) to meet the cultural norms of Americans, even though they clearly weren't the author or audience of that message.
 
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  #35  
Old 07-25-2008, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Harveyj View Post
Gamerslink: That's cool. I'd like to think we're keeping this at an intellectual debate level, so I'm trying to keep hyperbole to a minimum

Yes, you are right. It IS common sense to do business in the language of your host country. But many companies simply do not. They expect others to conform to their own norms.
It's the reason translation services thrive in the States, but don't do so well here or in New Zealand (although oddly enough, Maori isn't the lingua franca there, either).


Re: Facebook, they were PPC ads, so I was a paying customer. The example was basically that of American cultural imperialism, attempting to change (subvert?) to meet the cultural norms of Americans, even though they clearly weren't the author or audience of that message.
You are giving me the impression that you are upset because you, and by implication the reast of the world since this is how you feel, feels that every company should be forced to abide to your desire. If they don't do it on their own then they should be forced to do it?

I'm suggesting it's the consumer that forces what a business does. If the business doesn't give you a service you want, or deliver it the way you want then you have a few options as I see it. Suggest that they offer it, and wait for the response, others may be already doing the same thing. Suggest to the company they do what you desire and campaign to a noticable number of other people that do or may use the company in your region to suggest they do the same thing. If the company refuses, then find another company that doesn't, or start a competing company filling the gap left by the company that didn't meet the requirement, or actively boycott the company and promote others to do the same.

First off all American companies do not operate the same, secondly they are free to do business as they wish within reasonable law just as we the consumer are free to do what we wish within reasonable law. It's the free market and the power of the consumer that controls how businesses operate, so if you get frustrated or angry at how a business is doing it's business perhaps you should get angry at the consumers that keep supporting the business, or the stockholders that continue to buy the stock and continue to vote in the existing board of directors and ceo?

Point of view is different between a socialistic minded person and a democratic minded person though, and to that you are right, there will never be an end to that argument as the socialist minded will always be yelling for the democratic to conform to their ways.
 
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  #36  
Old 07-26-2008, 09:08 AM
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The US was founded on immigration. Our forefathers sought to leave oppression and religious persecution. They then came to this land and began wiping out the Native Americans. Only thru the years of naturalization have we suddenly become "legal". Do we have any more rights than those that come here now? I have heard of squatters rights, but what makes us legal and those others illegal? I have no problem with people coming to America to better themselves, their families etc. And yes, these immigrants do many jobs that "legal" americans no longer feel they should have to do. If we were to suddenly take firm action like "kicking them out" exactly who would take the time to help harvest our food? Definitely not the "typical legal citizen".

The only problem that I see with this whole ordeal, and true to American fodder is the money issue. All to often the money that is made here in America gets wired out of the country to the country of origin of the person sending it. It seems Ironic, that the immigrants that come here wanting a better way of life, still support the regimes that caused them to leave in the first place. The currency, while earned here ( sometimes they pay taxes, sometimes they do not ) ends up back in the hands of those that didn't want to help them in the first place.

I think that the immigration process should be mainstreamed, and those that come here seeking a better life should bring their entire family. Not just a worker here and there. If you earn it here, keep it here. Don't send it back to that other country.

I think it quite smug of us at times to think that we should just kick out the "illegals", after all isn't it inscribed on the tablet "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free..."

We just have to work on helping them understand how the American machine is suppose to run. And running back to your birth country after you have come to us for help, and gotten it, is not how things are suppose to go.
 
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  #37  
Old 07-26-2008, 01:08 PM
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If you earn it here, keep it here. Don't send it back to that other country.
Immigrants spend a lot of money here as well.

Would you like to pay the government to police their spending?

Conversely, we spend quite a bit of money overseas.

Would you like to pay the government to police our spending?

The government has no business in telling any individual (citizen or non-citizen) how to spend their money. The government's sole purpose should be to enforce the social contract.
 
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  #38  
Old 07-27-2008, 12:10 PM
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I think too many people look at this the wrong way. They make it an "us" against "them" thing then start calling "racism".

Just to clear it up, I'm talking about Mexicans here because I believe that's the main group in question. The question is not whether or not we want Mexicans here. I live in an agricultural area and therefore am in contact with and know quite a few Mexicans, mostly undocumented.

The culture of these people is wonderful. In my experience they have shown to be nearly without exception honest, proud (in the good way), devoted to family and community, respectful, kind, and dependable. These people would make a great addition to America. (I know there are the gang exceptions, but there are losers in every group)

The problem comes when they do things the wrong way. The simple fact is no society can stand the strain of a large segment of people using services but not paying in. The only way they can pay in properly is to be documented. As for those already here, we can't simply reward people that broke the law by giving them what they broke the law to get. If America were to do that (and I don't think they will) why shouldn't thieves be let out of prison and given back the 7-11 money they stole? The legal principle is exactly the same.

We've already got a massive strain on the system from segments of our population that are paid out by government funds far exceeding what they give back to society. Little can be done about that with a natural citizen, but why allow another stream to continue til it finally breaks the back of the system? That's just stupid.

I'm all for making it as easy as possible for a Mexican to become an American legally. Learn the language, learn our government and our history, bring a skill and come on in. I would support temporary restrictions once they arrive, but that's another thread for another time.

You don't have to round up millions of illegals. All you have to do is make it a serious crime to hire an illegal and impose serious, mandatory consequences for employers that do, then enforce it. Require documentation for social and emergency services and export as needed when none can be produced. That'll take care of that. If the proper system for getting citizenship legally is what's broken...let's fix that.
 
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  #39  
Old 07-30-2008, 12:26 PM
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If you throw out all of the illegal immigrants, they would probably band together and kick a lot of a$$. Besides ... Most of the time, they are not the problem ... The people who refuse to work are the real problem. Roast them and feed them to the immigrants ... It'd be a reward for being some of the hardest working people in our country today.

While you're at it, I can think of a few politicians who may be quite delicious also ...
 
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Old 07-30-2008, 12:39 PM
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Most of the time, they are not the problem ... The people who refuse to work are the real problem. Roast them and feed them to the immigrants ...
Not only true but hilarious!
 
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