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  #1  
Old 08-09-2008, 06:14 PM
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Amending the Constitution?

I've seen it said here, and other places as well, time and time again that the government is broken, politicians are bad and we need to get rid of them.

Just out of curiosity what are the proposals to fix it without collapsing the Country and it's economy?
 
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  #2  
Old 08-10-2008, 06:55 AM
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You guys are very divided. You've allowed your politicians to pit you against each other.
If you guys were able to fix that, you'd show the politicians that the country belongs to you, not them.
Just my opinion, but the whole lot of you need to put your country first and politics second.
If you can manage it, it wouldn't hurt if you also put your duty to each other above politics.
 
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  #3  
Old 08-10-2008, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Zap View Post
Just my opinion, but the whole lot of you need to put your country first and politics second.
Would you believe that's part of the problem? A huge part, and not how you think. When America stopped being a voluntary agreement between independent, sovereign states and began recognizing the "whole" as something with authority, it began slipping.

The constitution was very carefully written to give the federal no authority beyond a very small, very specific number of things. Each state would decide it's own policies for itself. That makes for good neighbors.

Now that we've piece by piece surrendered our state rights for federal security, we've become this "melting pot". Problem is, opposing ideas don't melt together, and absolutes can't compromise. So we fight, bicker, and argue so that our ideas are the rule. A return to state rights, a simple return to the constitution would fix most of our problems.

I don't know where you live, but can you imagine how France would respond if suddenly England told them what social policies they had to live by, or if Italy started imposing themselves on Germany? That's exactly where we get when a federally appointed court tells us in Georgia that we have to adhere to social practices of people in California, and New Hampshire has to follow what South Carolina wins, ect, ect. These are entirely differing cultures who are forced to accept things that fly in the face of what they believe. So we fight internally.

That was never the idea. We were going to be a collection of states, complete sovereign entities with our own governments, sharing a common military and a common currency for strength. Each state would be represented to make sure the others never gained authority and never got out of control. We had the perfect system and we've squandered it for the promise of security that could never have been delivered anyway. It's so far gone now that we're actually considering a blatant socialist for president.

I heard a pretty good argument recently that the Bill of Rights actually weakened the Constitution, and that had it never been written the constitution would have held together longer.

Some say that a socialist is just what America needs to win back it's freedom. People don't wake up til they get slapped hard enough. Perhaps Obama will show people that freedom isn't a given, the government can't save you and doesn't want to, and the original constitution was a good idea after all.

Obama may be just the disaster we need to wake America up again.

Last edited by South; 08-10-2008 at 09:02 AM.
 
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  #4  
Old 08-11-2008, 10:31 AM
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Well put South. I don't want to have to go through the terror of an Obama or socialist presidency though. Especially in these dangerous times. Could you imagine where we would be if we had had a Al Gore president on 9/11? or a John Kerry president in 2004? Things are way to uncertain now I think for a drastic overhaul by face slapping. I do totally agree that we need to return to the true intent of the Constitution. Heritage.org is trying to help with it
 
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Old 08-12-2008, 05:00 PM
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You could probably do with the President having a LOT of power stripped, and simply becoming either a figure head that has the power to dismiss government like the English Monarch (either directly, or through referendum), or being simply another politician that becomes the countries mascot and taking sock puppet (like the Australian Prime Minister (with the exception of Howard who liked to copy King George W)).

That one person has so much power, in this day and age, really is the crux of what's wrong with American politics.
The USA should not be ruled by the sort of person that would want to rule a country like the USA.

Failing that, I (can't believe I actually) agree with South. The US was meant to be union, a mutual cooperation for the benefit of all parties. Not a country in its own right.
A governing structure, similar to the way the EU is run, would work well if people could get their head around it.
 
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  #6  
Old 08-12-2008, 05:12 PM
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People had their head around it at one time, that is how it started out. We even had a civil war over it a while back. In actuality pre-9/11 President Bush was being bashed by states because he was doing just that. He was closing down programs, closing down portions of government whose purpose was to control state functions. The states were screaming as federal programs were being taken away as well as the funding and forcing the individual states to become responsible for their own activities. After 9/11 and then the War in Iraq that all had to be put on the back burner unfortunately. However states do have more responsibility to govern themselves with the current administration than they did during the 90's under President Clinton.
 
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  #7  
Old 08-12-2008, 05:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by South View Post
The constitution was very carefully written to give the federal no authority beyond a very small, very specific number of things. Each state would decide it's own policies for itself. That makes for good neighbors.
What really amazes me is that so very few people seem to realize that this was ever the case. I suspect that the Founders are spinning in their graves in astonishment at the current size and power of the federal government.
 
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  #8  
Old 08-12-2008, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Harveyj View Post
That one person has so much power, in this day and age, really is the crux of what's wrong with American politics.
Under the constitution the president has much less power than you probably think. Our whole system was deliberately set up to see to it that no one person had much power. Keep in mind that our system was written by a group leaving a harsh monarchy, and they wrote our system to make sure that had little chance of happening here.

They also knew and strongly warned about the dangers of the people voting away their own powers and empowering the government. They knew that power corrupted and so a government with power would be a corrupt government. Keep it small, keep it weak, and keep it in check.

It was a perfect system that could only be destroyed by the people it was written to keep free.

That's why you see me speak so harshly against liberalism. The American liberal mindset is one of the few things on this earth that can actually make me angry.

Socialized medicine = government control = less freedom
Current welfare system = government control = less freedom
Gun control = government control = less freedom
I could go on for hours....

People are lied to, promised securities that the government can't possibly deliver on and gladly trade their freedoms away for the return of nothing but a bigger, more powerful government which results in the only thing more power can result in, more corruption.

Dems complain about the patriot act pointing out that it infringes on freedom. The patriot act could never have been enacted 400 freedom losses ago, and what's more IT WOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN NEEDED. I consider it the bankruptcy bailout of our constitutional rights. It's a bad thing that hurts everyone around it but is necessary and exists only because we've allowed ourselves to come to this point.

Here's a plan. IF YOU DON'T WANT A GOVERNMENT POWERFUL ENOUGH TO ENACT SOMETHING LIKE THAT....QUIT FRICKIN EMPOWERING IT! STOP! JUST STOP!

And now, the same country that was spawned by the ideas of likes of Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, and the like, has done the exact thing these men warned us would happen if we weren't careful with it. We now have half a country ready to give it away to a socialist like Barack Obama. We've come full circle, tyranny to tyranny.

When I see the 19 year old boys and girls with Barack T's giggling about nothingness, I swear it makes you want to freakin cry at what's been lost. You look into that vacancy and you just wish you could pour enough experience into that head to wake them up before November.

When the voting age of 18 was established, people in our country were much more mature at 18. They were adults in their minds, not just in legality. They weren't suckers for this cult of personality sickness that owns them today. MTV has made it a game, Rock the Vote (IE, vote our way or you're uncool). How in God's name did the descendants of heroes of freedom become so easily lead down the path of government ownership with something as weak as bumper sticker slogans and a handsome smile? I actually heard one say on the radio not two days ago "I know Obama is the right choice because even the Europeans want him to be our president" That person is old enough to vote in America. Not mature enough to think well, but old enough to vote.

I would fully support a required test on American political and colonial history in order to register to vote. Nobody can truly understand America and still be a liberal. It's simply impossible.
 
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  #9  
Old 08-12-2008, 11:12 PM
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Quote:
South wrote:
It was a perfect system that could only be destroyed by the people it was written to keep free.
Unfortunately, I think one of the key elements in destroying that system was the implementation of the popular election of senators.

The House Of Representatives was established for the purpose of representing the people at the federal government level.

The Senate was established for the purpose of representing the states at the federal government level.

The difference between the two bodies was intended to provide checks and balances between individual interests and state interests. As such, the appointment of senators was left to the states' legislatures.

Once the Constitution was amended to mandate the popular election of senators, the states lost their representation at the federal level. For the life of me, I don't think that I'll ever understand why there were enough states willing to cede that representation by ratifying the seventeenth amendment.
 
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  #10  
Old 08-13-2008, 06:26 AM
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Excellent post, South. Thanks.
 
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  #11  
Old 08-13-2008, 03:50 PM
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Excellent post, South. Thanks.
Did I just read you right Zap???
 
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  #12  
Old 08-13-2008, 03:54 PM
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I think we need term limits for congress, no more being in congress forever.
 
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  #13  
Old 08-13-2008, 04:26 PM
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Term limits in one aspect is a good idea, but in another, what if you get someone that is really good and doing a really good job the right way? What are the chances you'll be able to replace them with another just because their term limit is reached?
 
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  #14  
Old 08-13-2008, 05:45 PM
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Have a look at the Westminster system of Government...
It's working out pretty nicely for most other representational democratic countries.

Quote:
Originally Posted by South View Post
...

Socialized medicine = government control = less freedom
Current welfare system = government control = less freedom
Gun control = government control = less freedom
I could go on for hours....
...
When I see the 19 year old boys and girls with Barack T's giggling about nothingness, I swear it makes you want to freakin cry at what's been lost. You look into that vacancy and you just wish you could pour enough experience into that head to wake them up before November.
....
Gonna disagree with you on the first set there.
Government control = Government control.
The problem faced here is that you have yet to see a system that utilizes those things effectively, government funded, but without government interference.
Seriously, socialized medicine can and DOES work, when kept at arms length from interference. Australia's system is only just starting to break down due to a dozen years of interference by our last federal government adding insane levels of redtape. Before then, we had a medical system that was free, efficient and amazingly good. We still have a pharmaceutical benefits scheme that sees useful drugs at affordable prices for all.

As for the other... I will agree with you there.
People of all ages these days are sucked into the cult of personality. Blame MTV & FOX (and a host of other channels that are entirely about keeping people thinking about something other than real issues) for pursuing an active agenda of keeping people stupid.
I was going to mention something about basic political education at school as well, but it's too open to ideological abuse when a country is ruled by interest groups and schools have to get soft drink companies to sponsor them just to afford roof repairs... Sadly Britain's heading that way too, and we wouldn't be far behind if we hadn't changed government last year.
 
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  #15  
Old 08-13-2008, 06:13 PM
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The problem faced here is that you have yet to see a system that utilizes those things effectively, government funded, but without government interference.
I just don't buy it. What feds funnel money for they will try to control. Sooner or later it become a bureaucracy. What they control they screw up.

Quote:
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Australia's system is only just starting to break down due to a dozen years of interference by our last federal government adding insane levels of redtape.
Exactly.
 
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  #16  
Old 08-13-2008, 07:45 PM
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Yeah, but our last federal government was based on the "Liberal"* party, under the stewardship of John Howard, who basically wanted to make our political system as much like US' as possible...
Utter deregulation in areas that NEEDED regulation, and over regulation in others that worked fine.

The decade long experiment took us from a regulated economy to one based on free market principals, and I think it demonstrated rather well that it doesn't work like all the people consistently espousing free markets pretend it does (in the exact same way that communism doesn't). The only thing that's kept our economy afloat while it was raped was the export of primary resources.

Watch. If our new government manages to get **** back to the way it was at the beginning of the 90s, whilst our dollar will go down against other currencies (not actually a bad thing for an economy primarily based on export of primaries and tourism. We're so 3rd world that way ), our socialised systems will begin to operate correctly again, as they managed to all through the economic crisii of the 80s.

*Liberal in an economic, not a social sense.
 
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  #17  
Old 08-13-2008, 08:13 PM
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Did I just read you right Zap???
Absolutely.
What he wrote was well thought out and an interesting read.
I can appreciate his point of view and the way he presented it without agreeing 100% with it.
And, I probably agree with more of it than you might think but that's because you haven't been paying close enough attention.
 
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  #18  
Old 08-14-2008, 06:35 AM
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Your usual posts show more of a socialist mentality. I may be wrong in my interpretation but many of your posts over the last several months have pointed heavily in that direction.
 
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Old 08-14-2008, 07:24 AM
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socialist mentality.
Gamerslink, how do you define socialist mentality?

This is NOT an attack btw. I'm just curious at why there seems to be such a hostile approach towards this "socialist mentality" and the use of the word liberals as an insult by some folks around here.

Reason why I wonder about this hostility towards liberals and people with a socialist mentality by a large part of the American population is the simple fact that I live in a culture myself where there is no such strong feeling against taking collective responsibility for matters that concern everyone. there's some socialism in every single political system, the pure fact that people appoint governments to manage a community's daily affairs is socialist in nature as are bridges, roads, parks and anything else a community decides to collectively manage and pay for. Not to mention the army, another pure socialist concept.

What I try to say here is that it's not a bad thing by default to have collective institutes for the benefit of the whole of society, every society maintains socialist concepts in one way or another and I wonder why his is such a bad thing in the eyes of some American people. Where I live people, in general, think that when they pay for a collective defence system they can pay for a collective healthcare system too, no biggie, there are numerous examples of things we collectively pay for to make our lives easier, safer or otherwise more pleasant.

I agree that institutes have to stay out of people's private affairs, whether they are governmental or otherwise, but I don't think that's something which can be politically labelled as being right or left, I think all people feel this way and I see both right and left political parties all over the world interfering with people's private affairs all the time, that's not something exclusive for one side, it's something that comes with politics in general, somehow politics is always trying to turn their role as a servant to the people around to make the people a servant to politics. That's not left or right wing, that's universal and comes, by default, with politics, as far as I see it. I also think that this is the problem that needs to be resolved to "fix" the political system.

Anyway, I do not think that it's such a bad thing that people have different opinions, I think it's a bad thing that the political system is corrupted and I think that costs society a whole lot more than a few collective projects.
 
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  #20  
Old 08-20-2008, 08:02 AM
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The rights of the individual should out way the rights of society as a whole, as long as the individual is not impeding the rights of a fellow individual. In socialist and other states the rights of the society or the government/anarchist out ways the rights of the individual. Need I say more?
 
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