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  #61 (permalink)  
Old 08-27-2008, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by krahmaan View Post
Well kick me while I'm down won't you, it's OK. I've already thrown in the towel on this debate.
That wasn't my intention. Good luck with your quest to control yourself. I hope you succeed. Two years, though!
I couldn't do it.
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Old 08-27-2008, 05:55 PM
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Yeah, I think you could because I'm no better than anyone else. I think you just don't know that you could.

But what drove me were spiritual reasons. I had to do it for a full year to qualify to learn an ancient meditation from India. But the first year I messed up a bit and had a drink and ate a little meat. So even though I got threw with out sex, they wanted me to wait another and do every little thing perfectly. The actually spiritual guru really only said that I'd have to get threw 1 year with no sex as the main thing. There were others that were secondary; no meat, no drugs, no alcohol. But since I messed up and had one drink that year and may ate some fish 2-3 times the students who represent the teacher wanted me to do a 'do over'. So I did. As of July 7th 2008 I completed the full year without any errors.

Kinda just a test of my will. The only good thing about it was that they told me that I could socially smoke -just as long as I didn't over do that. It's been tough, so smoking is my last vice to work on. See, I'm far from perfect!
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Old 09-28-2008, 09:35 PM
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In 1991, following the death of his homosexual lover from AIDS, researcher Simon LeVay decided to search the brains of cadavers (of six women and thirty-five men) to find a physical determinant for homosexuality. He examined the size of a particular brain structure known as INAH3, which has been linked to sexual behavior in animals, and reported that INAH3 was larger in heterosexual men than in heterosexual women, but also larger in heterosexual men than in homosexual men. This result, LeVay concluded, “suggests that sexual orientation has a biological substrate.”
There are numerous problems with this interpretation. For example, six of the sixteen supposedly “heterosexual” male subjects had died of AIDS—an extraordinarily large percentage in comparison to the general heterosexual population. As one analyst put it, because of this unlikely circumstance “it seems quite possible that LeVay . . . classified some homosexuals as heterosexuals.”

Other problems included the significant overlap in the overall range of INAH3 sizes between the “homosexual” and “heterosexual” groups and the possibility that the observed effect was a result of AIDS (which caused the death of all of LeVay’s “homosexual” subjects).

A 1993 critique in the Archives of General Psychiatry concluded that this and two other studies of brain structures remain “as yet uncorroborated” and noted that even if such studies are replicated, “we will not know whether the anatomic correlates are a cause or a consequence of sexual orientation.”

The Gene Study
Only one of the three most famous “gay gene” studies actually looked directly at genes. This was the 1993 study by Dean Hamer, a geneticist with the National Cancer Institute. Studying patterns of male homosexuality in extended families, he found a correlation between the existence of
homosexual brothers and homosexuality among maternal uncles
and other male relatives on the maternal side. From this, he theorized the existence of a gene influencing the development of homosexuality that is transmitted through the maternal line (that is, on the X chromosome, which men inherit from their mothers). Hamer then examined DNA from these related men, and claimed to have found “a gene that contributes to homosexual orientation in males” at a location called Xq28.

This supposed discovery of a “gay gene” made headlines. Hamer’s numerous caveats were less widely reported. Hamer reported that “the observed rates of homosexual orientation . . . were lower than would be expected for a simple Mendelian [i.e., directly inherited] trait.” He also admitted that not all cases of homosexuality could be explained by this gene marker, and that no conclusion could be drawn as to what percentage of homosexuality might have a genetic link. Finally, Hamer said there was a need to identify “environmental, experiential, or cultural factors . . . that influence the development of male sexual orientation.”

Even with those qualifying remarks, however, Hamer’s finding remains suspect for one key reason—other scientists have been unable to replicate it. One team of researchers, who tried but failed to confirm Hamer’s findings, declared in the journal Science in 1999 that their “results do not support an X-linked gene underlying male homosexuality.”

Two scientists who reviewed the data regarding biological or genetic theories on the origin of homosexuality concluded that “the appeal of current biologic explanations for sexual orientation may derive more from dissatisfaction with the present status of psychosocial explanations than from a substantiating body of experimental data. Critical review shows the evidence favoring a biologic theory to be lacking.”

In other words, the scientific evidence is that homosexuality is not inborn.
Is Homosexuality Involuntary?
There are three aspects to “sexual orientation”: attraction, behavior, and self-identification.

Attractions are indeed “involuntary.” But people do choose, and can be held responsible for, what overt sexual behaviors they actually engage in. A heterosexual married man might feel sexually attracted to a woman who is not his wife, but if he acts on that attraction, he is rightly condemned for an act of adultery. The fact that his sexual attraction was “involuntary” is no excuse for failing to control his actual behavior.

Homosexuals complain, however, that in effect they are being asked to refrain from sex altogether. Yet this argument only makes sense if “homosexuals” are utterly incapable of engaging in heterosexual relationships—a contention not borne out by the research. According to the 1994 National Health and Social Life Survey, the most comprehensive national survey of sexuality ever conducted, 2.8 percent of American adult men and 1.4 percent of American adult women identify themselves as homosexuals. But the same survey showed that only 0.6 percent of men and 0.2 percent of women report having had only same-sex sexual experiences since puberty. In other words, about 80 percent of self-identified “homosexuals” have engaged in heterosexual relationships.

So homosexual attractions might indeed be involuntary, but such attractions are psychological, invisible, and secret, and therefore essentially irrelevant to public policy. Homosexual behavior (and the desire of homosexual activists to have official governmental affirmation of such behavior) is what is really relevant to the debate over protecting homosexuals under “civil rights” laws. Such behavior is clearly voluntary, and thus the criterion (for civil rights protection) of being an “involuntary” characteristic does not apply.
Is Homosexuality Immutable?

There is no such thing as a former black person, nor, despite sex-change surgery, is there such a thing as a former woman or a former man, since even such surgery does not change the sexual identity inscribed in a person’s chromosomes. There are, however, thousands of former homosexuals.

The strongest scientific evidence of this was provided by one of the most unlikely sources. Robert L. Spitzer is a psychiatrist who was instrumental in pushing for the controversial 1973 decision of the American Psychiatric Association to remove homosexuality from its list of mental disorders. That event was a crucial early victory for homosexual activists.

Nevertheless, Dr. Spitzer had the intellectual honesty to accept a challenge to study the results of what is called “reparative therapy” for homosexuality. Reparative therapy is a mental health treatment designed to reduce unwanted homosexual attractions and behavior.

Dr. Spitzer studied 200 people who had reported some measure of change from a homosexual to a heterosexual orientation. He published his conclusions in 2003:

This study indicates that some gay men and lesbians, following reparative therapy, report that they have made major changes from a predominantly homosexual orientation to a predominantly heterosexual orientation. The changes following reparative therapy were not limited to sexual behavior and sexual orientation self-identity. The changes encompassed sexual attraction, arousal, fantasy, yearning, and being bothered by homosexual feelings. The changes encompassed the core aspects of sexual orientation.
Spitzer also notes that a survey of the literature in 2001 by another researcher found at least 19 studies that include tangible data suggesting a homosexual orientation can be changed.

https://www.frc.org/DL/29-SEP-08__EF...BA3C67E078.pdf


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  #64 (permalink)  
Old 09-28-2008, 10:12 PM
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Re: Truth

Quote:
Originally Posted by trntyvnll View Post
I think that was a nicely stated argument, along with a very fine source to back all the scientific statements!

It wasn't putting anyone down, and it focused on having to take responsibility for our actions. Nice and informative -kudos.
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  #65 (permalink)  
Old 10-04-2008, 05:28 PM
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To me it doesn't matter what a persons sexuality is, if you love someone you should be entitled to all the same rights are everyone else.
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  #66 (permalink)  
Old 10-04-2008, 07:10 PM
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trntyvnll,

Same exact study that I read, fact of the matter if you want to be real logical about this is, there are those that have chosen to be bisexual, or not have sex with the opposite sex, and there are those that have a biological disposition towards one side of the sexes, then there are those that are just psychologically unstable and aren't sure which way they are supposed to swing irregardless of it all.

Science at it's best is not absolute, psychology even less so. All that can be done is to make what we feel to be educated guesses and all the studies and all the discussions, and thoughts on the subject are going to conclude the same way. There are several different reasons, none of them can be confirmed or denied free of argument or doubt. And definitely not free of prejudicial influence.

The inability to prove something beyond argument does not disprove it's possibility or existence, just as we have learned in our past, proving something to the point we think is beyond argument does not prove it beyond argument. Nothing more so fits that category than anything dealing with Psychology or the human brain.
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  #67 (permalink)  
Old 10-04-2008, 10:04 PM
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i think less and less people are marrying for love anyway and more are marrying for friendship and companionship
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  #68 (permalink)  
Old 10-04-2008, 10:34 PM
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regardless the reasons for marriage, the traditional, religious definition of marriage has always been between a man and a woman, that religious definition should not be dictated by the state. A civil union on the other hand, something that countless couples have had done over the years. That should be allowed regardless of sexual orientation. That would make things all nice and simple now wouldn't it.
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Old 10-05-2008, 08:34 AM
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it would suck to not be able to marry who you want, but on a positive note if you cant marry who you want then you cant get hurt or hurt the person you want the most
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  #70 (permalink)  
Old 10-05-2008, 12:05 PM
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The subject of this thread is misleading. No gays have ever been prevented from being married. Anyone can get married, I believe you can even marry a horse. I saw it happen on Springer many years ago. Which begs the question (the subject of this thread also) "what if I love my horse?".

But the state shouldn't be involved in any of them, not even the ones they are currently sanctioning. Separation of church and state??? Isn't that what the leftists are always preaching?

Last edited by pgzn; 10-05-2008 at 12:22 PM.
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Old 10-07-2008, 04:00 PM
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^ I certainly won't be marrying a horse, or a dog. And I most definitely won't be teaching my children to marry those either. I will simply tell them the truth. I'll let my wife tell my daughter what the vagina is for, and I'll tell my son why he has a penis and what naturally happens in procreation. Nothing more, nothing less -other than to make sure he cherishes his wife and never to just see her as an object for sex. But for love and a happy home.

Anything else is brainwashing and out of context I think.
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  #72 (permalink)  
Old 10-07-2008, 04:38 PM
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Gay marriage is still a sin in the eyes of God and religious people. It's only the human being who have rules on gay marriage and it's not accepted in God.
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Old 10-07-2008, 11:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pau2x View Post
Gay marriage is still a sin in the eyes of God and religious people. It's only the human being who have rules on gay marriage and it's not accepted in God.
Amen.
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  #74 (permalink)  
Old 10-08-2008, 04:12 AM
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Originally Posted by pau2x View Post
Gay marriage is still a sin in the eyes of God and religious people. It's only the human being who have rules on gay marriage and it's not accepted in God.
Thank god we have seperation of church and state, otherwise the authorities would still be kiling everyone who doesn't believe in the bible-god like they did in the dark ages.
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  #75 (permalink)  
Old 10-08-2008, 07:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OnceAgain View Post
if 2 men are to each other so why not let them get married....
I believe I gave a good answer to that very question

Quote:
regardless the reasons for marriage, the traditional, religious definition of marriage has always been between a man and a woman, that religious definition should not be dictated by the state. A civil union on the other hand, something that countless couples have had done over the years. That should be allowed regardless of sexual orientation. That would make things all nice and simple now wouldn't it.
It is not as much a matter of semantics as a matter of who is it that initially defined not only the term, but the institution of marriage? It wasn't the state that did so, it was the church, or religion that did so. This being, it is only the church, or religion that has the true right to redefine how marriage is defined.

The state has the legal civil union. If it so decides to redefine it's allowances then that is the states choice and responsibility.
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  #76 (permalink)  
Old 10-08-2008, 08:19 AM
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I agree with you gamerslink. In my opinion the state (meaning governments in general) should stay out of the churches' marrying businesses, it's up to them (religions) who, why and how they prefer to marry people and it's no business of the church (meaning religon in general) to interfere with how the state wants to define or carry out legal civil unions.
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  #77 (permalink)  
Old 10-08-2008, 09:00 AM
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the traditional, religious definition of marriage has always been between a man and a woman, that religious definition should not be dictated by the state.
Which religion are you refering to gamerslink? Reason why I ask is because "marriage" pre-dates the Abrahamic based religions and ancient cultures in China and Greek did marry same sex couples, in fact in ancient China, especially in the southern province of Fujian, men would even marry youths in elaborate ceremonies. The marriages were long lasting. At the end of this marriage the elder partner would help the younger find a wife (of course female!) so that he can settle down to raise a family.

In ancient Rome, for example, the Emperor Nero is reported to have married, at different times, two other men in wedding ceremonies. Other Roman Emperors are reported to have done the same thing. The increasing influence of Christianity, which promoted marriage for procreative purposes, is linked with the increasing intolerance of homosexuality in Rome.

I got that information here:
http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/7-17-2004-56743.asp
http://ignca.nic.in/ps_05018.htm
http://www.associatedcontent.com/art...nt.html?page=3

I personnaly think that the definition of marriage should not be dictated by the Christian religion, they are not the ones who invented it in the first place at all.
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Old 10-08-2008, 09:12 AM
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For the purposes here, since it is the freedom to marry same sex in the United States which is at debate, then I was basing on the Christian religion as that is the founding religion of the United States.
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Old 10-08-2008, 09:17 AM
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For the purposes here, since it is the freedom to marry same sex in the United States which is at debate, then I was basing on the Christian religion as that is the founding religion of the United States.
"Founding religion of the United States"?

Guess not...


http://www.nobeliefs.com/Tripoli.htm

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Treaty of Tripoli
"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."
Quote:
The preliminary treaty began with a signing on 4 November, 1796 (the end of George Washington's last term as president). Joel Barlow, the American diplomat served as counsel to Algiers and held responsibility for the treaty negotiations. Barlow had once served under Washington as a chaplain in the revolutionary army. He became good friends with Paine, Jefferson, and read Enlightenment literature. Later he abandoned Christian orthodoxy for rationalism and became an advocate of secular government. Joel Barlow wrote the original English version of the treaty, including Amendment 11. Barlow forwarded the treaty to U.S. legislators for approval in 1797. Timothy Pickering, the secretary of state, endorsed it and John Adams concurred (now during his presidency), sending the document on to the Senate. The Senate approved the treaty on June 7, 1797, and officially ratified by the Senate with John Adams signature on 10 June, 1797. All during this multi-review process, the wording of Article 11 never raised the slightest concern. The treaty even became public through its publication in The Philadelphia Gazette on 17 June 1797.
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Old 10-08-2008, 09:35 AM
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When in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
I could type out the whole thing because there is another reference or two to God in the Declaration of Independence.

http://www.christianparents.com/declarid.htm
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