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Controversial Social Issues Discussions concerning controversial social issues. Topics include politics, religion, culture, social and economic issues, etc. Respect required at all times.


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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 09-11-2008, 07:17 AM
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You guys are being princesses, moaning about the LHC pea, without noticing that your mattress is threadbare
Who says we aren't noticing that the mattress is threadbare? Wake up and smell the socialism. The governments are spending money they don't have and money they don't have the right to spend.

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And moaning about the pea in the first place is the act of someone with no love of knowledge.
That right there is the statement of somebody with no love for principles. Like the principle of freedom of the individual to determine what he does with the money he earns.

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be scared of the horrible communist taxes
Communism is dead. It isn't communist taxes that we abhor. It's socialist totalitarianism. It's the repressive majority telling the minorities what their money will be used for, what they can eat, drink or smoke.

Socialism is both totalitarian and authoritarian. And if you aren't afraid of those, you're either ignorant of the millions (billions?) they have murdered, or you aren't ignorant and love government funded murder.

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but to do so is to ignore the great leap in knowledge they're hoping to make
Now there's a moronic statement. If somebody comes up to me and steals money from me, I guess I should ask him what he plans to use the money for?

That could very well qualify as the stupidest statement you've ever made.

The fact is, I'd love for the project to cure cancer, HIV, the common cold and everything else. But even if it did, that would not justify the forceful theft of money from taxpayers to pay for something that isn't mandated by the social contract that determines the scope of the government's authority.

Wrong is wrong, no matter what the benefits.

If you believe in it so, why not go the voluntary contributions route?
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 09-11-2008, 11:00 PM
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Originally Posted by John Scott View Post
Contributions made by US citizens? That's grossly dishonest. Contributions are generally given of one's free will. Taxes are taken under duress.
It's just a metaphor... The second statement explained what I was trying to point out.
 
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 09-11-2008, 11:35 PM
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The level of Frankenstein Complex in this thread amazes and appalls me.

Taxes are hardly taken by force from citizens of Western European countries.
At any time if they don't like it, they can move somewhere else... like Lichtenstein... Much like so many people in the US move to TJ or the Caymans. And those that don't move have no right to continue bitching because they stayed there.

But yeah, lets all bitch about tax money being spent on stupid projects.
But before you do, anyone that's getting electricity via nuclear power, cut yourself off from the grid. You're not allowed to get solar panels either. Because those were government funded.
Oh, and while we're at it, you're not allowed to use medicinal penicillin ever again either, because Flemming got a government grant for his research.

The potential for the LHC to give us building blocks for the next wave of all manner of scientific endeavors is literally astounding. Yet so many of you are bitching about it costing money that you never earned and or paid in tax, by governments you've never lived under whilst many of you are happy to continue a war that is costing that much MONTHLY... Because blowing up the country that was run by a petty tyrant who could have been left to his own devices, that's really providing benefits to mankind.
And don't feed me BS about it being humanitarian when most people can't even point Iraq out on a map.

And before anyone calls me a hypocrite, I now live less than 20km from the Cyclotron that I'm happy my taxes went towards... It's yet to cause a black hole, but it has provided data that actually proved useful in helping research at the PMC
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 09-12-2008, 01:17 AM
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Originally Posted by John Scott View Post
If you believe in it so, why not go the voluntary contributions route?
Because if you'd bother to think for even an instant, you'd realise that projects of this scope can only be organised by governments, or even a coalition of governments. Private individuals financing and organising it? Yeah, sure. Why not have NASA funded privately? Seriously, think before posting.
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old 09-12-2008, 01:22 AM
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Because if you'd bother to think for even an instant, you'd realise that projects of this scope can only be organised by governments, or even a coalition of governments. Private individuals financing and organising it? Yeah, sure. Why not have NASA funded privately? Seriously, think before posting.
Precisely the response I was hoping for.

So what you are saying is, projects like this do not enjoy the support of the people, so governments need to ignore the will of the people and fund them with money taken against the will of those who earned it.

Exactly.
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  #46 (permalink)  
Old 09-12-2008, 01:24 AM
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Taxes are hardly taken by force from citizens of Western European countries.
So they aren't mandatory? News to me.

And Western European? I'm specifically talking about the US contribution.
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old 09-12-2008, 01:34 AM
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Originally Posted by John Scott View Post
Precisely the response I was hoping for.

So what you are saying is, projects like this do not enjoy the support of the people, so governments need to ignore the will of the people and fund them with money taken against the will of those who earned it.

Exactly.
No, dude, not my point at all. The scale of thing is what I'm talking about. Could the Hoover Dam have built privately? How's an individual going to get anywhere, just thinking even in terms of the land required? Gathering the top particle physicists from all over the world? Coming up with a system for governing/processing/allocating the vast flow of data - the equivalent of 56 million CDs a year. It's way beyond the scope of private funding to deal with, as you well know.

And anyhow, I suspect if you ask around you'll find far more people are for the LHC than against it.
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old 09-12-2008, 01:45 AM
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Gathering the top particle physicists from all over the world? Coming up with a system for governing/processing/allocating the vast flow of data - the equivalent of 56 million CDs a year. It's way beyond the scope of private funding to deal with, as you well know.
Not at all. In fact, private funding would probably have done it faster, more efficiently and borne out results already.

The Human Genome Project cost taxpayers $3 billion and did a half assed job. Celera Genomics did a more complete job of mapping the human genome for just $300 million.

In Japan, the post office was privatized and it's awesome now, and also profitable. All buses and trains - which were socialized - are now privatized and customer satisfaction is 100 times what it was.

Private industry does big projects much more efficiently than your socialist governments. Always has, always will.
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old 09-12-2008, 02:01 AM
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Really? Then why has the US government just taken over Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, two of the largest privately owned businesses ever? Hardly a sign of faith in the free market, when the government has to assume ownership of the largest mortgage providers to prevent utter disaster, is it?
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old 09-12-2008, 02:07 AM
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Then why has the US government just taken over Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, two of the largest privately owned businesses ever?
Because they are socialist?

Do you have another answer? Both obviously were acting irresponsibly, and saving them by pumping billions more into an already failed operation can be nothing more than reckless disregard for taxpayers.

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assume ownership of the largest mortgage providers to prevent utter disaster
To prevent utter disaster? LOL! Two government start ups going out of business would not be disaster.
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  #51 (permalink)  
Old 09-12-2008, 02:35 AM
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Originally Posted by John Scott View Post
Not at all. In fact, private funding would probably have done it faster, more efficiently and borne out results already.

The Human Genome Project cost taxpayers $3 billion and did a half assed job. Celera Genomics did a more complete job of mapping the human genome for just $300 million.

In Japan, the post office was privatized and it's awesome now, and also profitable. All buses and trains - which were socialized - are now privatized and customer satisfaction is 100 times what it was.

Private industry does big projects much more efficiently than your socialist governments. Always has, always will.
Although those are evidences of good private funding but generalization of its effectiveness has no definite assurance. Such companies has it own exclusive motivational goals that drives them for absolute results. Sometimes, big companies can have more hidden threats to societies since they can do whatever they want because of their money. We can never know if they tend to invade something from the people.

Also, some systems of government prove to be more safe for the people's interest. We can't integrate a particular issue for all such systems. Like in European countries, some government projects are proven effective such as the policies imposed by the European Unions.
 
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old 09-12-2008, 02:38 AM
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We can never know if they tend to invade something from the people.
What the hell does that mean?

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Also, some systems of government proves more safe for the people's interest.
See question above.
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old 09-12-2008, 02:42 AM
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You're concluding everything from just one particular issue. You have to be OPEN-MINDED to understand it all.

Try to watch Discovery Channel or NGC, you can learn something about the big things about the world there.
 
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  #54 (permalink)  
Old 09-12-2008, 02:44 AM
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You're concluding everything from just one particular issue.
What am I concluding from one issue?
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  #55 (permalink)  
Old 09-12-2008, 03:36 AM
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What am I concluding from one issue?
He just told you! Everything!

Oh, the Celera thing was only able to make such fast bounds because of the freely available data on genome sequencing, which they took advantage of. Celera, by the way, wanted people to pay for similar data that they generate. Also, the publicly funded Human Genome Project were proceeding in a 'safe' manner, slow but sure. Celera just wanted, as I say, to commercialise their findings so went in a mad rush to get the info first whatever the 'risks', so they would 'own' it. The Human Genome Project was paid for by the public, and the findings free to the public, and they deposited their research into the GenBank, which was available to the public. Despite pledges to co-operate, Celera refused to put their findings into that knowledge repository. Or to put it another way, one was interested in knowledge, the other was interested in money. Suit yourself when you're thinking about which one you prefer. Oh, and congrats for proving yourself a stooge to private interest versus public good. You'd make a good politician.
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  #56 (permalink)  
Old 09-12-2008, 06:22 AM
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He just told you! Everything!
LOL! Cute, but try to keep the jokes to a minimum. Serious discussion, after all.
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Oh, the Celera thing was only able to make such fast bounds because of the freely available data on genome sequencing
And a lot better management, better techniques (which the HGP later adapted) and more accountability to those paying the bills.
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Oh, and congrats for proving yourself a stooge to private interest versus public good.
What the hell are private interests? When somebody pays for something that will benefit the public, they should be paid for it.

Soaking taxpayers, it should be noted, is not in the public interest. You can claim this and that and the other thing has a slight chance of helping people, but the fact is that when you resort to taking money by force to fund your projects, you're a thief. Nothing more, nothing less. Taking by force what isn't yours - theft.
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