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Old 09-22-2008, 10:03 AM
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$700 Billion

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080922/...ncial_meltdown

Now that the Republicans and Democrats are united in an orgy of spending, should we kidnap Ron Paul and create our own nation?

And how is it that Ron Paul and Bush belong to the same political party? Republicans and Democrats show very little difference anymore if you exclude Ron Paul Republicans.
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Old 09-22-2008, 10:09 AM
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it's sad that no one takes responsibility for their own actions anymore. make bad financial decisions? government bailout. now the taxpayers must pay because too many people played "keepin up with the jones" with their spend first save later attitudes. actually more like save never.
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Old 09-22-2008, 10:14 AM
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I don't know, dude. The scope of the government is now without limit. We need Ron Paul. We need freedom. Without it, we are headed toward scary scary land. McCain is better than Obama, but just by a smidgen. Either way you are looking at a huge Federal budget.
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Old 09-22-2008, 10:26 AM
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I will see McCain President and Ron Paul Secretary of the Treasury it would be a good match.

Why they always put Ron Paul off the game?
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Old 09-22-2008, 10:28 AM
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Why they always put Ron Paul off the game?
Government is the biggest employer in the US. Ron Paul would fix that.
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Old 09-22-2008, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Natural Elements View Post
I will see McCain President and Ron Paul Secretary of the Treasury it would be a good match.

Why they always put Ron Paul off the game?
Because Ron Paul doesn't present well.
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Old 09-22-2008, 10:34 AM
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Because Ron Paul doesn't present well.
Ron Paul and Tom Selleck for Prez/ VP?
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Old 09-22-2008, 02:29 PM
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What was Ron Paul's proposal to fix the immediate problem out of curiosity? I didn't see a viable alternative to the immediate bail out. I hate that to be what I see but it was just the same. The problem stems from many years of mismanagement of companies such as Fannie Mae and countless others. When you mix that with a society filled with individuals that have no concept of personal responsibility you end up with what we have. A shift in a market that has to be supported while the shockwave travels through.

My concern is that the bail out will just make an excuse an avenue for the same things to be repeated and we'll be back in the same situation or worse in a few years.
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Old 09-22-2008, 05:52 PM
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Did anyone stop to think that maybe the U.S. Don`t even have even 700 Billion? I think it`s just more B.S. I`m not that bright but it seems for the past twenty years, our government like to throw out these high numbers thinking that most people can`t conceive the big numbers.

But yet if I have $35 in the bank and write a check for $50, they want to cart me off to jail. To me, it does not add up. I think there is around 300 Million in the U.S. with say about 80% working taxpayers. To me that does not add up.

And another thing, 20 years ago the govt. started selling off National Landmarks. ( No Proof, just hearsay) But I would not put it past them. I have been saying for years that these guys don`t have the money they say they have but people thought I should have been sent to the looney bin.

I think these guys in high finance should be in jail or better yet shot! For some reason they think that the rules don`t apply to them. Yeah, maybe shot is a little excessive. It just burns me up when I try to be honest in all my affairs and these guys are lying to fill their coffers.

Damn John, sorry to rant but you brought up a touchy subject. I won`t even go into the part where the govt wants to cap the executives salary. The nerve?????
 
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Old 09-22-2008, 08:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Scott View Post
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080922/...ncial_meltdown

Now that the Republicans and Democrats are united in an orgy of spending, should we kidnap Ron Paul and create our own nation?
Maybe, now it's time to weather the storm. Because no matter who wins the 2009 election, it won't be what this country needs. All our resources have been spread out too thin for so long, now we're about to do it all over again.

I've always wondered why our country wouldn't fix the problems here at home. Strengthen itself first, before extending itself into other countries' problems. Every since I learned about Ron Paul and his realistic views, I see why people have deliberately looked over him. I think they were afraid that he just may have done what he said. Rebuild this country back into a great nation. I think it has to do with fear of success.

Now we'll be like a fimily who's house is on fire, but instead of putting out our own fire we try to put out the fires of everyone else. While in doing this we may not be able to put out thier fires, and the fire in our home will be left unattended. Better to save our home (country), than to let them both burn.

Paul was very wise to see this. And we were fools not to all support him, when only he had are greatest interests in mind. Oh well, back to living like Tarzan in the jungle.
 
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Old 09-22-2008, 10:08 PM
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Originally Posted by thegamerslink View Post
What was Ron Paul's proposal to fix the immediate problem out of curiosity? I didn't see a viable alternative to the immediate bail out. I hate that to be what I see but it was just the same. The problem stems from many years of mismanagement of companies such as Fannie Mae and countless others. When you mix that with a society filled with individuals that have no concept of personal responsibility you end up with what we have. A shift in a market that has to be supported while the shockwave travels through.

My concern is that the bail out will just make an excuse an avenue for the same things to be repeated and we'll be back in the same situation or worse in a few years.
Ron Paul's solution was to stockpile and prepare for the inevitable crash, and then actually let it happen as more of a "controlled fall" than a crash, thus allowing for a swifter rebuild afterwards, due to less calamitous circumstances.
Whilst not explicitly stated, a number of commentators assume there is an inherent attempt to get rid of the Federal Reserve as the group that issues currency, and to try to back the currency against actual assets owned by the nationstate. This in turn would lead to a new US dollar that isn't a fiat currency, and is less likely to be affected by international market pressures.
The only problem with a face value currency is that is intrinsically does not allow for unlimited economic expansion. Thanks to the bull**** banks pull, splitting every dollar three different ways on the books, you actually have markets that grow even though there's no new assets or realised value. That makes investors happy. Face value currency is all about how much gold can be hoarded, figuratively.
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Last edited by Harveyj; 09-22-2008 at 10:12 PM.
 
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Old 09-22-2008, 11:32 PM
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Face value currency is all about how much gold can be hoarded, figuratively.
If you tie it to gold-only standard.
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Old 09-23-2008, 04:45 AM
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Does anyone have any idea how this whole situation could have been avoided? Should the financial sector have been forced not to lend to sub-primes? (I don't intend any pejoratives there, I'm sub-prime, even though I've been debt free for years - I don't understand that either BTW.)
Prison sentences? Can people be trusted? Evidently not. Should we repossess and sell executives' homes? Seize their bonuses and use them to help pay the debts off?

Seriously, I'd start considering those options as I believe those guys have committed crimes. Making it stick though, that's another story.
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Old 09-23-2008, 05:23 AM
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I am thinking the same Rankenstein, I am sure they are some people responsible for this, now who will have the courage to find these people and bring them to justice?

When a trader manipulated millions illegally, he is going to jail, and I don’t see why some guys will walk away after this mess.

There are people right now suffering from hurricane devastations, losing their jobs, houses, etc… All the oil investors are making life more difficult for these people and they want us to help them with $700 billions from taxpayers, so they can keep their investments?

It is unfair, something wrong, completely wrong. The help should be for everyone !
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Old 09-23-2008, 05:39 AM
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I am thinking the same Rankenstein, I am sure they are some people responsible for this, now who will have the courage to find these people and bring them to justice?

When a trader manipulated millions illegally, he is going to jail, and I don’t see why some guys will walk away after this mess.

There are people right now suffering from hurricane devastations, losing their jobs, houses, etc… All the oil investors are making life more difficult for these people and they want us to help them with $700 billions from taxpayers, so they can keep their investments?

It is unfair, something wrong, completely wrong. The help should be for everyone !
The oil investors are making life more difficult for these people and they want us to help them with $700 billions from taxpayers?

How did the oil investors get related to the bail out? The bail out if I'm not mistaken is required because of all the bad mortgages that have been bought by banks over the last 10-15 year? I mean Fannie Mae was asking for help in 2005 and the help never came, in the 90's a requirement for Fanny to write 10% of their paper in poverty level areas. Is this not where the problem stems?

When you reference the "oil investors" who is it that you are talking about? the Mutual Funds and multiple other funding that are owned by teachers, retail store employees, business people and anyone else with a 401k plan?

http://susan-lynn.blogspot.com/2007/...il-anyway.html

http://www.energytomorrow.org/econom..._Company_.aspx
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Old 09-23-2008, 06:33 AM
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Well I am trying to say that some financial establishments are basically helped and nationalized, investors play around to make money or are trying to find safe heaven on oil market that penalize the people with high prices.

People loosing their jobs, house etc... still waiting for help

The point is everybody focus on the failing stock market but not on people.
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Old 09-23-2008, 08:57 AM
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If you have a failing stock market then are not the business that employ the individual people, hold the mortgages and savings of the individual people in trouble, not letting them to support the individual people as in allowing them to make a living or have access to their savings, or have capitol in which to borrow against if their situation requires it?

It is all pretty much connected from what I see. If Wal-Mart stock loses 20%-30% in 1 week or 1 day that pretty much cripples their buying power and makes it difficult if not impossible to continue to hire new employees or give pay increases. If a bank loses 20% of their value on the stock market in one week or one day then they too have those same problems plus an inability to honor all the money to their customers. I know many people don't believe in trickle down economics but I don't see how you can have a secure economy (individual) if the top economy (corporate, finance) isn't strong.
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Old 09-23-2008, 09:05 AM
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Here's interesting: for some time (decades), US banks/brokers/dealers (whatever you want to call them) were held to a debt-to-net-capital ratio of 12 to 1. In 2004, five banks were allowed to exceed this by a special exemption. You get no bonuses for guessing which 5 banks they were. That's right. The full story I read is here:

http://bigpicture.typepad.com/commen...tory-exem.html

So, the 'banks' had special dispensation to go nuts on debt. Very disturbing.
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Old 09-23-2008, 10:12 AM
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If you have a failing stock market then are not the business that employ the individual people, hold the mortgages and savings of the individual people in trouble, not letting them to support the individual people as in allowing them to make a living or have access to their savings, or have capitol in which to borrow against if their situation requires it?

It is all pretty much connected from what I see. If Wal-Mart stock loses 20%-30% in 1 week or 1 day that pretty much cripples their buying power and makes it difficult if not impossible to continue to hire new employees or give pay increases. If a bank loses 20% of their value on the stock market in one week or one day then they too have those same problems plus an inability to honor all the money to their customers. I know many people don't believe in trickle down economics but I don't see how you can have a secure economy (individual) if the top economy (corporate, finance) isn't strong.
Well I understand what you said, but imagine ok we will give 700 billions because of failing financial market, next few months later we are in the same situation and will be asked to spend again 700 billions?

If the market is going well, people have only their salary nothing more, so someone fill up their wallets, when things go bad all people have to pay.

I mean it is time to find a good balance and when things go well, then people should be rewarded more for their work, not only peanuts, but something decent.

Remember if you give the selling power to people the economy will work very well, and consumers will spend with confidence, etc...But I am afraid that employers and traders are too greedy to share company benefits. That's why the message of 700 billions is hard to swallow for people.

Rankenstein, yep pretty disturbing.

Pulling off limit the rubber band, and it will cracks

How much is enough?
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Old 09-23-2008, 11:00 AM
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You may be basing your opinion on an incomplete view. What is it that the $700 billion buyout is going to? Is it going to Wal-Mart, Best Buy, Sun Microsystems, Microsoft, Coca Cola, or any countless other business traded on the stock market? Is it going to the agricultural or oil markets? No, it's going to the mortgage and banking industry. Why is it you may wonder we are having to do this? You probably have heard not to long ago that CountryWide was padding it's books by doubling some accounts on the front end as well as the back end of their profit loss statements. This gave them more assets on paper than they actually had. While the books were like this the value of stock was high, once these practices were exposed or ran their course the stock value and along with it the value of the company plummeted.

In the '70's under the Carter administration mortgages were pushed to be approved towards a percentage of low income people in the name of equality. This created a massive amount of bad paper in the mortgage community, these practices were once again pushed in the 90's under the Clinton administration. As a matter of fact the mortgage companies were even threatened by the justice department if they did not write the paper. All of this bad paper(loans that either could not or would not get paid back) were then purchased by Fan Mae in order to be put on their books to increase their assets on paper, this allowed the leaders meet bonus figures. You may know one of them, he's the financial adviser to Obama and was nailed on the practice relieved of his position and fined $40 million dollars out of the $90 million he had been paid.

These practices are what have caused the root of our economical problems we are facing at the moment. It is the amount of loans that have been given out to people who did not appropriately qualify for the loan and had no way of paying it back. And mortgage companies using that paper to look like they have more assets, or expecting more income than is possible. It has finally all come to a head.
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