Indian Webmasters

[blind2web]

I think it a misconception that it is India's fault when jobs are moved there. Nobody forces American or British companies to move to low cost countries; these decisions are made in Britain and America by Britains and Americans.

A study by PriceWaterHouseCoopers a couple of years ago showed that it was actually beneficial to move certain jobs abroad as trade increased between the two countries in the long-run.

Thanks

B2W

[bytech]

Those mocking the language skills of anyone should think about how proficient they themselves are with more than one language. From my experience, anyone mocking someone else's language knows only one. Lamers.

[bytech]

Originally Posted by blind2web

Nobody forces American or British companies to move to low cost countries; these decisions are made in Britain and America by Britains and Americans.

While I agree with you, there is a hook to this. I discovered it after reading "No One Makes You Shop At Wal-Mart". It put a whole new meaning to the word "choice"... I'd recommend the book to almost anyone. You'll see your life from there-on in a whole new way.

[littleFella]

Originally Posted by blind2web

A study by PriceWaterHouseCoopers a couple of years ago showed that it was actually beneficial to move certain jobs abroad as trade increased between the two countries in the long-run.

Thanks

B2W

These are slogans but the fact remans that for every job moved from the US to India, there is one more unemployed American with advanced (or fairly advanced) skills. I fail to see how this benefits BOTH countries.

As for the increase of trade between the two countries this is another gimmick and politician's slogan. Sure, the trade between China and US increased signifficantly. Now there is hardly anything that is manufactured in the US. The most recent vicitm being the US textile industry. The trade deficit with China is around $200B. Can you tell me how this benefits the American citizen, one who doesn't trade on Wall Street?

Can you also tell me how the brain drain benefits the US? Computer science is not an attractive proposition to an American kid anymore. No jobs, or few jobs. The US is beginning to lag in technology and science behind countries such as China and India. Can you tell me how this benefits BOTH trading "partners"?

China is increasing its millitary potential, using money earned from trade with the US.Meanwhile US soldiers have no, or mediocre bullet proof vests. Can you offer some of the benefits of the trade with China to the American soldier?

[G10]

Originally Posted by littleFella

These are slogans but the fact remans that for every job moved from the US to India, there is one more unemployed American with advanced (or fairly advanced) skills. I fail to see how this benefits BOTH countries.

We are talking about corporations and money, do you think they give a damn about US or UK jobs, as long as they are making an extra £.

It does benefit in the short term but it definately won't in the long term.

I have noticed in the UK that more and more people are changing opinions and would rather pay a little extra and get UK support than have it from another country.

[littleFella]

Originally Posted by G10

I have noticed in the UK that more and more people are changing opinions and would rather pay a little extra and get UK support than have it from another country.

I've said it before: nothing will change until the first time China imposes some sort of trading embargo on the US. They are already in a position to do so.

[blind2web]

Littlefella,

My point was to stop blaming the countries where the jobs are moved to such as India and China and start looking a little closer to home - Britain and America.

We all have a choice where we can shop, what goods we can buy as do the big businesses who move their production, IT and call centres abroad to low cost countries.

My problem with moving to low cost countries is that the consumer rarely benefits from this and the company simply makes greater profit. I am personally happy to pay a bit more for something made locally as long as the quality is better.

I actually work in a centre where jobs were moved from Germany and Britain; the costs are 6 times cheaper and the quality just as good, if not better. How are western countries meant to compete with this?

Once again, I would look at the profits made by HSBC, Barclays and other banks which were around 10 billion GBP each last year and ask: is such profit necessary? It was there decision as it was IT companies and other large companies to move abroad to increase their profit.

Regards the braindrain, there is a far greater braindrain from developing countries into developed countries than the other way round.

Regards increased trade, I actually didnt believe the study but the facts were there and I am sure a quick search will find the exact answers. I am often sceptical of these studies as they tend to show what the customer wants to hear.

I am not supporting low cost countries at all, I am just making a point about who to point the finger of blame at.

B2W

[littleFella]

I never blamed the countries which receive the jobs. Neither do I blame those individuals who get those jobs. If I were to be one of them I would do exactly the same. I am blaming Western politicians for allowing not so bad economies to go down the drain, and to leave in the dust millions who worked hard to create those economies.

Western countries managed to compete with the other ones by a very simple formula: keep the know how at home and benefit from the sale of the resulting product. The quality of the products (I know software industry) is indeed comparable and I don't think this is the issue. I worked with East Indians and with Chinese. They are competent, some are very good, some just good; as in any other country. No geographic are seems to have monopolized the genius market.

Perhaps the "new economies" are lacking in the level of customer support and relations. Actually some suck really big time. It's not that they are worse, stupid, or impolite. Just different cultures. You gotta live in a country to understand its culture. The language itself is not enough. I came to the US (later moved to Canada) and I spoke the language just fine before I immigrated to North America. Problem was I could talk about Shakespeare but didn't know how to ask for a loaf bread in a corner store.

I'm not dying to read the article you mention. I was born and raised in a communist country, and I also took quite a few courses in philosphy and rethorics. I know how easy it is to convince many about the benefits of their own demise. We see it almost daily on the news.

[blind2web]

Littlefella,

We seem to be arguing a very similar thing here; I think it is possibly worse in the European Union since the new member states - Poland, Czech, Hungary etc joined as they are part of the trading block and many companies have moved production to these countries. I guess it is a very similar situation in North America.

Dont bother reading the articles on the benefits of outsourcing as they are purely about economics; it is more personal experiences that count in such situations - whether a family member or friend has lost a job to a low cost country.

I live in a former communist country, my wife spent the first 20 years of her life under communism and the area where her family is from is still pretty much communist. My wife's mother lost her job, she made about 250 USD a month, but it was even cheaper in China, so the company moved production there. You will also find countries such as India even struggle to compete with China.

I place no blame on the people in low cost countries but I do blame businesses that move production to these countries that have extremely poor working conditions, forced labour, child labour and such. Western businesses should be punished for such practices and prevented from doing so. These are the main reasons why costs are low and if there was a level playing field, more jobs would stay in the country of origin.

I could go on for ever on this subject but, as I said, it often boils down to personal experience.

B2W

[littleFella]

Originally Posted by blind2web

Littlefella,
We seem to be arguing a very similar thing here;

I had the same feeling

Originally Posted by blind2web

I think it is possibly worse in the European Union since the new member states - Poland, Czech, Hungary etc joined as they are part of the trading block and many companies have moved production to these countries. I guess it is a very similar situation in North America.

Here I would disagree a little. New EU member countries had to meet some strick membership criteria; human rights, labor laws, social service, infrastructure, some products quality etc. This is a far cry from India or China. Also, the new member countries are much more open as markets now, and people there do buy lots of what is being manufactured outside their borders. Look at an average street in Poland: Citroen, Ford, BWM, Mercedez etc. These are manufactured outside her borders.

Before Poland was accepted to EU there was a funny set of incidents which had to do with one French politicians complaint. He was fearful of "Polish plumbers" coming to France and taking jobs from the French. No such thing happened, but the whole hoopla actually helped Poland's tourism industry and made the French look stupid (yet again) - read more here.

On the other hand, countries such as Germany, UK or Sweden don't seem to get enough Polish doctors, who do not work for pennies at all. Look at the Oxford and Cambridge university enrollments in the recent years. As the media has it, it's a Polish invasion, but one that generates revenue for the host countries, rather than stealing it.

Also, EU has a big say in establishing some prices within the borders of all member countries, including the newest ones. That was a big hit on the cost of living, especially to those who already retired.

As for the investments, Chech Republic got some good ones, notably by Volkwagen (Skoda), but I can;t think of many major EU companies who invested in Poland. Those which did were mostly retailers who stole no jobs from the West, but rather made a buck or two for it by selling western goods in Poland. There have been some high tech moves into Poland, but these were from Asia (LG for instance), not EU.

[blind2web]

Hi Littlefella,

Glad to see we are getting along at last. My point about the new member states such as Czech, Poland, Hungary is that they are part of a free trade area, whereas China and India are not. Britain cannot stop the free movement of goods and services from these countries into Britain, but goods from India and China can be blocked from entering the EU as they can be blocked from entering the US. The EU just recently had to restrict certain goods from China as the market was completely flooded as it was affecting jobs and business in the EU.

I would say the Czech Republic is the most advanced of the new member states technologically, economically and with regards education. Skoda is just one of many companies with massive investment, Siemens has over 15,000 employees, SAP, IBM, and many other IT and production companies have moved jobs into Czech, but believe me they will move on to another country as soon as the costs are beneficial to do so.

Poland has a lot of problems but many large companies have outsourced or offshored work there; many of these German companies. I think the advantage Poland, Czech, Hungary, Bulgaria, Romania have over China is the proximity to Europe and particulary Germany, plus German language skills which are not widely available in China and India.

Thanks and take care,

B2W

[shahab6]

Originally Posted by blind2web

Littlefella,
You will also find countries such as India even struggle to compete with China.
B2W

So true, this is happening to India to, their jobs are being moved to China.Thats because their wages are going up, so its cheaper to move it to China. You have to understand, companies want to give the job to someone who can do it for a good job, with the lowest pay, that used to be India, now its slowly becoming China.
If companies did not do that, they would of not survived, and they had to shut down. A lot of companies are open because of outsourcing. This makes the company to focus on other projects.

[shahab6]

Originally Posted by Julie

They tend to work for less money, taking away business from other people..... so others may not be too pleased about that.

thats what I believe too.

[prince13]

Originally Posted by JohnScott

I just noticed this, and it's something I now realize I see a lot of. On webmaster forums, it seems that Indian webmasters (webmasters from India) get treated like second rate citizens. I was reading a thread on another forum which we won't mention, and the OP was Indian, and all the people responding were just mocking his English, etc, without adding anything of value....

yes.... here too..

i can PM u some names...

[ash1]

these people done realize india is the largest english speaking country in the world and they each usually know 2-3 languages , where the people mocking them probably know 1 or 2...

[littleFella]

Originally Posted by ash1

these people done realize india is the largest english speaking country in the world

That's debatable at various levels:

1. The largest English speaking country is Canada
2. The country with the largest population of English speakers is USA.
3. The largest country where English is one of the official languages is India.

English is spoken as the first and/or second language by about 515,000,000 people. Let's say 550 M on a good day.

290 US
60 UK
33 Canada
30 South Africa
20 Australia
4 New Zealand
4 Ireland

Total: 441 million.

550-441= 109.

Out of the 109 million English speaking people, not all live in India, or are of Indian origin.

still:

113 < 290

Therefore, India is NOT the largest English speaking country in the world.

[blind2web]

I agree with Littlefella that the USA has the highest population of speakers of English as a first language, although I believe the figures stated are underestimated. I think the important thing is what level people speak English to. I have worked in this field for a long time and have these figures -see below

How many people speak English?

English has official or special status in at least seventy five countries with a total population of over two billion

English is spoken as a first language by around 375 million and as a second language by around 375 million speakers in the world

speakers of English as a second language probably outnumber those who speak it as a first language

around 750 million people are believed to speak English as a foreign language
one out of four of the world's population speak English to some level of competence; demand from the other three-quarters is increasing.

I would say in the world more than 1 billion people speak English, the question is on what level.

B2W

[ash1]

http://www.answers.com/topic/list-of...ing-population

technically India has the most english speaking population, 30% of the population speak english as a second language, and the standard is pretty good. Most education in india is in english after elementary school, ...

so 30% means 300 million +

which is more than the US

[chicgeek]

*shrug*

Now we're just getting nit-picky.

[littleFella]

Originally Posted by ash1

http://www.answers.com/topic/list-of...ing-population

technically India has the most english speaking population, 30% of the population speak english as a second language, and the standard is pretty good. Most education in india is in english after elementary school, ...

so 30% means 300 million +

which is more than the US

Funny though how your source shows India's English speaking population to be at some 11 milion people, and occupying the 6th spot on the list.