Indian Webmasters

John Scott · 07-19-2006, 06:00 PM

I just noticed this, and it's something I now realize I see a lot of. On webmaster forums, it seems that Indian webmasters (webmasters from India) get treated like second rate citizens. I was reading a thread on another forum which we won't mention, and the OP was Indian, and all the people responding were just mocking his English, etc, without adding anything of value....

Julie · 07-19-2006, 06:04 PM

Well, its not right to pass judgement on someone b/c of their ethnicity...but I think the reason people may treat them in such a way is that they are resentful of them. Which doesn't make it right or justify it all, but that's just how people are. They tend to work for less money, taking away business from other people..... so others may not be too pleased about that.

I'll shut up now before what I say gets skewed.

John Scott · 07-19-2006, 06:05 PM

I think you hit the nail on the head, Julie. I think a lot of webmasters do resent the loss of jobs to Indians.

littleFella · 07-19-2006, 07:26 PM

The only Indian IT people I worked with were right here in North America. Funny though that they lost their jobs here cuz their jobs went to India

praveen · 07-19-2006, 09:22 PM

Quote:

They tend to work for less money,

thats is something even the good ones hate...

most of the people who do these less money jobs are those who are entering the sector new or because they started some ****ty company and are desperate for $$$....
its like quantity is better than quality..

this is what i have noticed ever since i landed in india in feb...

praveen · 07-19-2006, 09:38 PM

Quote:

I think you hit the nail on the head, Julie. I think a lot of webmasters do resent the loss of jobs to Indians.

mostly due to the currency bit..
one dollar is equal to almost 45 rupees...

another thing is,

India, as a country, is moving towards tech only in the last 4-5 years. before that it was all doctors, lawyers, engineers etc...

now, IT=quick money.

lack of knowledgable people has made the companies to offer perks, incentives etc.

so if one joins a biig company and stays there for 2 yrs, his future is almost settled and he neednt have to worry much.

because of this and because of the huge "publicity stunt", you see people from the villages and small towns joining this bandwagon in search of quick money.

establised and experienced it people = lots of money.
whereas if u take these people = more work and less money.

and here people place a lot, i mean a lot, of importance on education. so almost everyone spends the better part of their teenage years working their butts off to get a good grade.

some think outside the box..(small %)

majority are one way horses.

they know only couple of things and thats what they do... risk taking ability is almost non existent.

Take Wipro for example, they were saying business was not good and analysts were predicting lesser revenues.. but after they released their figures, it has infact beat all expectation..

how? employ cheap labour.
if one leaves there are 2 to take that place..

and remember, atleast 70% of the population are technologically less aware and ignorant when you compare them to people in US or UK.

hence the scenario (like this blog ban stuff).

you can only fill a cup to a certain level and after that it will start to spill...

likewise, it is only a matter of time before this trend stops.

companies in US, UK etc can only outsource the jobs as long as it doesnt affect the economy much.
the moment that happens, the govt will step in and stop it inorder for the local talent to flourish...

Daniel-Z · 07-19-2006, 09:58 PM

Well I hope the govnt steps in soon

BinkyMelnik · 07-19-2006, 10:16 PM

John:

Quote:

it seems that Indian webmasters (webmasters from India) get treated like second rate citizens

Just like in meatspace, people develop stereotypes of other people, but they're even less reluctant to express their bigotry because they don't hafta look anyone in the eye. Frex, on traffic exchanges, it's well-known that the vast majority of cheaters are in Asia. Plenty of enchange owners will tell you without batting an eye that they've banned IP blocks from China, and say "%&#$! Chinese! I hate 'em! They're all cheaters!"

Betcha they'd never do that on the street, though.

I know I've felt some resentments towards various Indians 'cause they nailed jobs I wanted, but i suuure as hell couldn't afford to do 'em as cheaply as they could.

Having said all this, it's rude to mock folks' English. Even when you see really bad English, you still hafta marvel that it's as good as it is, given how difficult our language is to grok.

praveen · 07-19-2006, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Just like in meatspace, people develop stereotypes of other people

True.

littleFella · 07-19-2006, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by praveen

companies in US, UK etc can only outsource the jobs as long as it doesnt affect the economy much.
the moment that happens, the govt will step in and stop it inorder for the local talent to flourish...

I don't think the governments will do anything. The economy has been affected by outsourcing and general trend to export jobs, but other than Lou Dobbs on CNN, few even try do anything about that. The US economy is already deeply affected, but the government doesn't realy govern. Corporations do. They want "return on investment" and "value for the sotckholder".

Btw. whatever the accent and such, I wouldn't blame an Indian developer for trying to survive. What is disappointing though is that Americans and Canadians have to compete against people who live in a country that for practical purposes has no labor laws, and actually is not even a true democracy.

Daniel-Z · 07-19-2006, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by littleFella

I don't think the governments will do anything. The economy has been affected by outsourcing and general trend to export jobs, but other than Lou Dobbs on CNN, few even try do anything about that. The US economy is already deeply affected, but the government doesn't realy govern. Corporations do. They want "return on investment" and "value for the sotckholder".

Btw. whatever the accent and such, I wouldn't blame an Indian developer for trying to survive. What is disappointing though is that Americans and Canadians have to compete against people who live in a country that for practical purposes has no labor laws, and actually is not even a true democracy.

You make alot of sense LitleFella.

Maksa · 07-19-2006, 11:17 PM

I am second rated citizen. Coz i m not good like u people

praveen · 07-19-2006, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by littleFella

I don't think the governments will do anything. The economy has been affected by outsourcing and general trend to export jobs, but other than Lou Dobbs on CNN, few even try do anything about that. The US economy is already deeply affected, but the government doesn't realy govern. Corporations do. They want "return on investment" and "value for the sotckholder".

Btw. whatever the accent and such, I wouldn't blame an Indian developer for trying to survive. What is disappointing though is that Americans and Canadians have to compete against people who live in a country that for practical purposes has no labor laws, and actually is not even a true democracy.

not to offend anyone,

from where i stand, the war on terror has taken the limelight since those unfortunate incidents.

probably that is the reason the govt is not "worried (insert similar word)".

whereas in countries like india, china such things are commong.

take the Bombay Blasts, it was making headlines for the first week or so.. now it sort of gone down the list and probably sits in 6th or 7th place.

whether its a true democracy or not, thats something out of this context (IMO).

there are labor laws defined.. but the high level of corruption among politicians and other officials has made it look like that.
thats something which is builtin within the program.

unless the program is rewritten or another program takes over, i am afraid there is no solution for it.

JamieJelly · 07-20-2006, 01:22 AM

I saw a t-shirt that said "my job went to India and all I got was this lousy t-shirt"

praveen · 07-20-2006, 01:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamieJelly

I saw a t-shirt that said "my job went to India and all I got was this lousy t-shirt"

Yeah saw that in a local newspaper

Freelance · 07-20-2006, 01:47 AM

Ha, Yes I have seen that somewhere aswell.
I think it's unfair so many people are loosing jobs to the country. But think about it, it's a smart move for the companies. They can employ masses of people, at lower pay rates, and get alot more income. It's any business owner's dream.

**G10** · 07-20-2006, 05:35 AM

This is not always a good thing though and I would rather pay more to keep the jobs over here.

I am sorry if that sounds wrong but my reasons for this are this;

1, My girlfriend was with HotChilli ISP and it worked fine for about a year. When it went wrong, I called here support and it was based in India and even though they tried, they couldn't fully understand the issue and after 2 months and numerous phone calls, they were still asking questions like "have you tried resetting it?" (turning it off and on again!

)

I have done 12 years in IT and I am being spoken to like I was born yesterday. In the end, we left HotChilli.

I can go on forever with issues like this and my point is, if you have a problem and are trying to get it sorted, the last thing anyone wants is to deal with someone who does not fully understand your language, nevermind the situation at hand.

In my years in the industry, this has happened so many times that now I would rather pay a little extra and get the support I want.

btw - I wouldn't mock them though as they are only doing their job and think that anyone that does just because they can't speak the language properly should get themselves better educated.

praveen · 07-20-2006, 05:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G10

This is not always a good thing though and I would rather pay more to keep the jobs over here.

I am sorry if that sounds wrong but my reasons for this are this;

1, My girlfriend was with HotChilli ISP and it worked fine for about a year. When it went wrong, I called here support and it was based in India and even though they tried, they couldn't fully understand the issue and after 2 months and numerous phone calls, they were still asking questions like "have you tried resetting it?" (turning it off and on again!

)

I have done 12 years in IT and I am being spoken to like I was born yesterday. In the end, we left HotChilli.

I can go on forever with issues like this and my point is, if you have a problem and are trying to get it sorted, the last thing anyone wants is to deal with someone who does not fully understand your language, nevermind the situation at hand.

In my years in the industry, this has happened so many times that now I would rather pay a little extra and get the support I want.

btw - I wouldn't mock them though as they are only doing their job and think that anyone that does just because they can't speak the language properly should get themselves better educated.

if i had been in your situation, i would have done the same.

see, this is what i said b4..

its the poor quality which irks everyone.

but sadly, the company executives dont care a **** cos they pay paltry sum as salary... and neither the govt.

for them investment is coming in.
all everyone looks at is the present day stuff. no one looks at what the future will be if this poor service keeps on and on...

edit:

because of this the good talent goes out of the country. because they are frustrated and angry at being offered such low salary.

hence these 3rd tier people manages to come in and screw things for everyone...

even if the 1st and 2nd want to work, they will be asked if they (3rd) can work for x pay why cant u.

no one understands delivering quality customer service online or offline.

*sigh*

littleFella · 07-20-2006, 06:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by praveen

whether its a true democracy or not, thats something out of this context (IMO).

It is not out of this context (IMO). The political system dictates the lawas of the country, labor laws included. These iffy laws allow for pretty mediocre working conditions and therefore lower wages, lower than even other aspects of the country's realities would allow for. Being one of the oldest civilizations on Earth India is trying to bite through the modern world, and it seems to be working for the most part, albeit only for a small part of the society. The vast majority is still a victim of that historical plaque called tradition and in some cases sometimes religion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by praveen

there are labor laws defined.. but the high level of corruption among politicians and other officials has made it look like that.
thats something which is builtin within the program.

unless the program is rewritten or another program takes over, i am afraid there is no solution for it.

That's my point. Law is not only what's on paper, but above all those parts of the written rules that are actually implemented and followed.

I was born and raised in a communist country. Believe me, the consitution and the laws were awesome. The problem was they were only on paper.

Rankenstein · 07-20-2006, 09:03 AM

If it's the thread I think you mean, John, I interpret what happened in that thread somewhat differently. Other than that I have noticed the phenomenon and it isn't nice.

But I have also noticed (and I'm afraid this is a generalisation) that Indian webmasters are more 'pushy', shall I say? OTOH I attribute that to the fact there are over one billion Indians and you probably have to be pushy just to get to the back of the queue.

Bottom line for me? The more diversity the better.