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  #121  
Old 02-22-2007, 12:12 PM
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ewomack ewomack is offline
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Ok, so cigarette smoking is okay because cars pollute more?

By the way, I agree that cars pollute more. Airplanes pollute even more. But which situation do you personally have more control over every second of your life?
 
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  #122  
Old 02-22-2007, 12:21 PM
Scolls Scolls is offline
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I do think cigarette smoking is okay, yes. Not because cars pollute more, but because I don't blow my smoke in ppl's faces, and since I'm not disturbing anybody, they should mind their own business, not so?

Anybody who would like to contest that with me is welcome to, as they are entitled to their opinions, but I would regard those that drive, BBQ, cook, make use of electricity (especially coal-powered), etc as hipocrites for attempting to take the speck out of my eye.
 
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  #123  
Old 02-22-2007, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Scolls View Post
I do think cigarette smoking is okay, yes. Not because cars pollute more, but because I don't blow my smoke in ppl's faces, and since I'm not disturbing anybody, they should mind their own business, not so?

Anybody who would like to contest that with me is welcome to, as they are entitled to their opinions, but I would regard those that drive, BBQ, cook, make use of electricity (especially coal-powered), etc as hipocrites for attempting to take the speck out of my eye.
As long as you include not smoking in places where people will be affected by your smoke in "not disturbing anybody," yes.

I see why you think people who do the things you listed are hypocrites, but are those situations really good analogies for smoking?

We already agreed that driving pollutes in a big way. That's true. Regardless, the control a person has over whether or not they drive is much more complicated than the decision to smoke or not (at least where I live). To smoke, you simply pick up a cigarette and smoke. Your decision. No societal factors (apart from advertising or peer pressure) enter into it. Driving or not driving, especially if you exclude public transportation, involves a massive realignment of lifestyle, and the society I live in is completely framed around driving and the pressures to drive are huge. Of course, one can choose to stop driving, but this involves much more than the decision to stop smoking. You could improve your analogy by including SUV drivers. One can easily choose not to drive an SUV, and I wish more people would. I don't drive one and I never will.

Regarding BBQing and cooking, do you have any figures about the adverse effects of smoke from BBQ or cooking? The difference between the contents of BBQ smoke and cigarette smoke must be huge - cigarette smoke has been shown to include many toxins. Also, can you ask people to stop cooking? That's another decision rife with many more complications than merely picking up a cigarette.

The same issues around electricity use are similar to driving or not driving or cooking. Where I live the decision to not use electricity would have a massive impact on lifestyle. That's not a simple choice. Unlike picking up a cigarette. That's a pretty easy choice. But to stop using electricity? How can you accuse someone of hypocrisy on that count? Also, I recently changed my entire electrical energy source to wind. My power company provides it and I jumped on it. THAT was an easy decision that many should make. People who outright choose coal-based power could work in your analogy, however.

I don't think any of the situations above serve as good analogies for smoking. I'm sure some good ones do exist. Regardless, I do agree with you that the above behaviors do have adverse affects, but I disagree with your charge of hypocrisy in those cases. Good discussion.
 
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  #124  
Old 02-22-2007, 01:49 PM
Scolls Scolls is offline
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Put it this way, what would you say to somebody who stopped next to you in their car and asked you to put out your cigarette as you're polluting his atmosphere? Hypothetical example, yes, but I believe it does help illustrate my comparison, as well as to show you my thinking behind the hypocrisy notion.

I think that nowadays it's become something quite fashionable for people to frown upon smoking, mostly because of media influence really, much like where it was once rather smiled upon when it was very popular, and here I'm talking kinda "James Dean" days.

As far as the relative toxicity goes, yes there has been loads of lists of toxins listed as being ingredients in tobacco, the list being so long I wonder how it's possible that a cigarette can weigh less than a pound!
But I have yet to hear of somebody smoking themselves to death as a method to suicide, whereas we all know what happens if you had to redirect the exhaust into the car's cabin and decide to retire for, well... forever!

No figures off-hand on BBQ-ing, but a wood fire certainly can take one's breath away as the smoke follows you around no matter where you stand (Sod's Law?). Of course, step it up a little to a forest fire, and that's a whole lot of smoke you just don't want to get stuck in, and we have heard of numerous enough fatalities from such smoke inhallation.

I suppose we could also have a look at those who enjoy jet-skiing, to look at your comparison of what all's involved between decision to stop smoking and stop driving. Nobody would think of asking people to stop watersports because of the polluting effect engines have - wouldn't even give it a thought! Certainly, one would not die if one didn't jet-ski, but I believe that a smoker should enjoy at least as much right to choose to smoke as a person who enjoys his relax time jet-skiing and other hobbies that make use of polluting machines.

So where should we draw the line with freedom of choice?
 
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  #125  
Old 02-22-2007, 01:57 PM
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I just got back from Nicaragua, and believe it or not, a pack of marlboros is only 75 cents there.
 
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  #126  
Old 02-22-2007, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by sitetutor View Post
I just got back from Nicaragua, and believe it or not, a pack of marlboros is only 75 cents there.
Made in Nicaragua.
 
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  #127  
Old 02-22-2007, 02:45 PM
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Made in Nicaragua.
Yeah, probably.
 
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  #128  
Old 02-22-2007, 08:41 PM
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IslaScotts IslaScotts is offline
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To Cricket, the message wasn't really directed at you... except the picture part... I found the picture stupid. It looked like a melted voodoo doll and does not depict the smokers true body as there are statistics involved and some of those problems are rare, and come on.. show me one person that 1) looks like that 2) has every single one of those problems listed to the extent shown in the pictures. I worked in a nursing home, my mom worked in a nursing home for a great portion of my life. I know what smokers bodies look like, and they don't look like that. It is purely an inaccurate scare tactic and wrong.

As for ewomack:

Quote:
Driving or not driving, especially if you exclude public transportation, involves a massive realignment of lifestyle, and the society I live in is completely framed around driving and the pressures to drive are huge. Of course, one can choose to stop driving, but this involves much more than the decision to stop smoking.
Ask Cricket if if her lifestyle wasn't DRAMATICALLY changed. Ask her if her own pressure and her friends and/or family smoking is not a daily pressure for her. Smoking is an ADDICTION that can be harder to break than a heroin habit. So your analogy is highly skewed. People are not addicted to their cars, they have only come to rely on them.
 
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  #129  
Old 02-22-2007, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by IslaScotts View Post
As for ewomack:

Ask Cricket if if her lifestyle wasn't DRAMATICALLY changed. Ask her if her own pressure and her friends and/or family smoking is not a daily pressure for her. Smoking is an ADDICTION that can be harder to break than a heroin habit. So your analogy is highly skewed. People are not addicted to their cars, they have only come to rely on them.
Yes, smoking is a very hard habit to break. I've watched many people try and fail. It's sad to watch, especially when they really want to. I've also known at least one person who has tried to break heroin. No comparison there. Heroin wins hands down. Not even close. Very few people get institutionalized for smoking addiction relative to heroin addiction. Regardless, I would argue that people can become addicted to their lifestyles and for many that includes the convenience and constant availablity of a car. Without their taken-for-granted amenities and creature comforts some people would go to pieces (I've had a few friends who did just that when their jalopies croaked; they didn't know what to do with themselves and they felt trapped). And, just like Cricket's friends and/or family giving her pressure over smoking, we all experience enormous pressure to keep up a certain lifestyle for the social class that we were born into. Most people don't even realize it (read Paul Fussell's book "Class" for some entertaining info on this). That's a very hard one to break, but some have done it (I like to think I have, but I probably have more work to do). So use caution when downplaying people's lifestyle choices, they have addictive potential (in fact, anything has addictive potential and some people are more susceptible to addiction than others; this even includes such seemingly innocuous activities such as shopping, collecting, washing one's hands, pacing, building model airplanes, etc. The right person could be more hopelessly addicted to shopping than another person is to smoking). Giving up a lifestyle that one was born into and bred into for decades doesn't just get dropped like a moist kleenex. So I don't agree that my analogy is skewed.
 
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  #130  
Old 02-22-2007, 09:30 PM
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Jack F Jack F is offline
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feed into the media

I've smoked since I was about 12, I'm 41 now. I can still outrun, outwork, outdo physically most everyone half my age. And yes, I've been challenged many times. I should admit my will to win is unmatched. I like a challenge and present myself with one on a daily basis for the most part.

I should state however that the daily grind has presented itself with problems. I'm feeling my age but mostly from working construction for a good portion of my life. Last year I was stuck working in a 24 floor building with jackhammers leveling floors through the entire season. With me inhaling the pulverized concrete dust the whole time. One day I worked in a room while buddy jackhammered for a good 3 hours. I gotta say there are many things we all encounter that is much worse than smoking. If everyone wants to pick on smoker, cut down smokers, or just plain feed into the media's portrayal of the common smoker then have the decency to take it a step further and have something to say about the mechanics who repair your cars, change your oil. Make mention of the guys working in ashphalt, insulation, masonry, cabinetry, millwork as well. Its endless the trades who have it worse than what everyone thinks smokers deal with. Meanwhile lets make the smoker look like a pig. Here in Canada the cigarette packs have disgusting images on them, they don't deter a smoker, they just make them look dirty.

I cut no less than 40 feet of particle board (veneered), jigsaw a good 10 or 20 feet, drill out hardwood, softwood, mdf, particle board daily. I may retire soon but only to get away from those hazards and focus more on my online business'.

I should state my feelings on smoking in public, which has nothing to do with how the media plays it for us to feed on. I do not smoke in my house, i do not smoke in a non-smokers presence, I do not smoke in public most of the time. I admit I don't know enough about the impression I may leave on children, the influence on someone trying to quit, and the feelings muffin bakers come up with on their tranquil walk in the city. I try to keep it to myself. Smoking gives me some solice. I lead a high impact life and a smoke just relieves the stress of the moment. It's illegal here to smoke in an indoor (some outdoor) public places, which includes indoor construction sites. So I'm only puffin 1 every 2 or 3 hours while I work, and sometimes I'll stretch it for 8hrs. It may not seem like much but I've always been a pack-a-day smoker. Any day that I notice I've only smoked 3 cigs, I feel good 'cuz deap inside I'm sure I gave my lungs a break.

Needless to say, people need to chill on the smoker. Driving your cars, paying for your portion of that jet-fuel while you travel, buying stuff made of plastic, turning on your lights, oven, dryer, furnace does much more harm than the everyday smoker. Just you living is an invasion to the environment.

Jack.
 
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  #131  
Old 02-22-2007, 09:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scolls View Post
Put it this way, what would you say to somebody who stopped next to you in their car and asked you to put out your cigarette as you're polluting his atmosphere? Hypothetical example, yes, but I believe it does help illustrate my comparison, as well as to show you my thinking behind the hypocrisy notion.

I think that nowadays it's become something quite fashionable for people to frown upon smoking, mostly because of media influence really, much like where it was once rather smiled upon when it was very popular, and here I'm talking kinda "James Dean" days.

As far as the relative toxicity goes, yes there has been loads of lists of toxins listed as being ingredients in tobacco, the list being so long I wonder how it's possible that a cigarette can weigh less than a pound!
But I have yet to hear of somebody smoking themselves to death as a method to suicide, whereas we all know what happens if you had to redirect the exhaust into the car's cabin and decide to retire for, well... forever!

No figures off-hand on BBQ-ing, but a wood fire certainly can take one's breath away as the smoke follows you around no matter where you stand (Sod's Law?). Of course, step it up a little to a forest fire, and that's a whole lot of smoke you just don't want to get stuck in, and we have heard of numerous enough fatalities from such smoke inhallation.

I suppose we could also have a look at those who enjoy jet-skiing, to look at your comparison of what all's involved between decision to stop smoking and stop driving. Nobody would think of asking people to stop watersports because of the polluting effect engines have - wouldn't even give it a thought! Certainly, one would not die if one didn't jet-ski, but I believe that a smoker should enjoy at least as much right to choose to smoke as a person who enjoys his relax time jet-skiing and other hobbies that make use of polluting machines.

So where should we draw the line with freedom of choice?
Yes, the media once portrayed smoking not only as "cool" but as having "no known health effects." That's right out of a Marlboro ad from the 1950s (I think YouTube has it posted). Had the public not been deceived by the tobacco companies or had some enterprising attorney general exposed them sooner we probably wouldn't be discussing this right now. Cigarettes have always thrived on image over anything else via movie stars, fashion models, advertising, etc. The difference? They were finally caught and the deluge of evidence changed the media (and some of the public) attitude towards smoking in general. It wasn't a simple "smoking's now out" event.

On car exhuast vs. smoking: it would take a very large cigarette to deliver the oomph that an automobile engine delivers in an instant. The two are not comparable. One you can hold in your hand. The other needs a winch to move. Yes, an automobile will kill a person much faster than a cigarette. That makes complete sense. The exhaust from a rocket will kill a person even faster. Death by car exhaust is quick. Death by cigarette is slow. That's why many who want to do themselves in choose the car method.

On freedom of choice: everyone should be free to smoke as long as they don't interfere with the health of other people. Unfortunately for smokers that limits the habit quite a bit. I'm not for an all out ban against cigarettes, but I'm all for designated smoking areas and smoke-free zones. I don't want my health to decline because of someone else's unhealthy habit. Do it to yourself, keep it away from those who don't want it around, and everyone will probably manage just fine.
 
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  #132  
Old 02-23-2007, 10:43 AM
Scolls Scolls is offline
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I'll definitely agree with designated smoking areas, but I definitely get peeved when they are not provided or have been made especially difficult to locate! For example, some airports!

I think it comes down to consideration for others. Similarly, I get peeved when somebody reeking of alcohol (last night's to top it all) decides to board the bus next to me, etc. But certainly I do feel that the smoker is starting to be quite the target unnecessarily, where ppl should learn to respect others' choices in life, whether it be smoking, choice of religion, you name it!
 
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  #133  
Old 02-23-2007, 11:46 AM
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I think it's good that the laws are starting to change all over the world regarding smoking. Especially when it comes to children being exposed to second hand smoke, it's time for people to be less selfish. Yes, I believe that you need to have areas somewhere so people can go ahead and smoke, but the bottom line is that smoking is bad and not smoking is good. So there is absolutely no need to make it too easy for people to kill themselves.

I know how little I have smoked in California compared to let's say in Europe and Central America where you can pretty much light up everywhere you are. It's tough to quit in places like that.

I don't think I will ever quit, which is a shame to say, but that is how I feel. But if there is anything I can do to keep someone young from going down that same road, I will.

So basically, I am a smoker, but I am anti smoking. heh
 
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  #134  
Old 02-23-2007, 12:09 PM
Scolls Scolls is offline
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Talking

Of course, again I'd like to see children protected from toxic carbon monoxide pouring out of car exhausts, not to mention other pollutants clearly visible in the morning smog from afar. Big dofference between city air and country air, isn't there? So I'll sit & watch the clouds of pollution over the city from afar as I take another puff of my little cigarette and mix it in with the crispy-fresh country air as I draw...

Last edited by Scolls; 02-23-2007 at 12:12 PM.
 
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  #135  
Old 02-23-2007, 12:09 PM
grazie1 grazie1 is offline
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I don't smoke... well, it's a choice right? coz in my case,although some of my friends smoke, I really don't smoke. I was not influenced by them...
 
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  #136  
Old 02-23-2007, 01:17 PM
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I don't smoke... well, it's a choice right? coz in my case,although some of my friends smoke, I really don't smoke. I was not influenced by them...
it depends how old you are, when you are young, you are very impressionable and the less kids see grown ups smoke, the better.
 
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  #137  
Old 02-23-2007, 01:21 PM
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I once asked a woman who smoked: how did you start smoking? She said one day when she was a teen a group of friends were all sitting around when one of them suddenly said "Hey! Let's teach her how to smoke!" And she had ever since.
 
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  #138  
Old 02-23-2007, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Scolls View Post
I'll definitely agree with designated smoking areas
I just go without when the only choice is to smoke in a box. I'll wait the duration. And in some cases leave the premises, especially when I'm there for someone elses benefit of whom I care less about already.

Theres been a few times where I've been told not to smoke on the jobsite the last 3 years. If I dont want to be there anyhow, i would say "no problem" and pack my tools and walk. A couple times they would call after me to come back but I can use the occasional day off and keep walking. It may not seem like a big deal, but the plumbers, painters, electricians, granite, tile and other trades fall right behind me. Usually costs them a day over this, and if the other trades have plans falling on the lagged day, they lose even more days. It causes quite the mess and I take flack for it. But screw 'em if they cant take it.
 
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  #139  
Old 02-24-2007, 12:40 PM
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I don't smoke *sniker*

No really...
 
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  #140  
Old 02-24-2007, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by ewomack View Post
I once asked a woman who smoked: how did you start smoking? She said one day when she was a teen a group of friends were all sitting around when one of them suddenly said "Hey! Let's teach her how to smoke!" And she had ever since.
Sounds silly, but I believe it. Very common story. No one had to teach me how to smoke really, but I've seen a lot of kids get dragged into it who were not even interested in lighting up.
 
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