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  #1  
Old 01-01-2004, 02:27 PM
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John Scott John Scott is offline
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SEO like it was 1999

From Jill Whalen's newsletter:

Quote:
Normally I place my guest article second, but since Karon is pretty
much summing up my own feelings
about the latest Google changes and
how they affect SEO copywriting, I thought it would make sense to be
first, followed by my "year in review" article. Enjoy! -- Jill
Quote:
The reports are true... Google IS moving to a semantic-type system.
But that doesn't mean keywords are on their way out at all. After the
changes are made, Google will be going beyond *just* looking for
keywords on your page. They'll want well-written copy... actual
language that speaks to your site visitors.
Here Karon Thackston is guessing that Google can now tell the difference between well-written copy and poorly written, optimized copy. Amazing. Note that she also states her opinion as fact.

The simple fact is, no algorithim can detect the motivation behind a writer's writing style. And whether copy is interesting to the reader or not is a matter of (entirely subjective) opinion.

Quote:
For those of us who have been focusing on search engine copywriting
that appeals to both the engines and the site visitors, Google's
upcoming changes should be very exciting....

Just like the demise of most META tags, and just like Google
practically ignoring ALT/image tags, "tricks" come and go. Write your
copy primarily to impress your site visitors. ...

Overall, it will take some time for any definite/solid information to
filter down about the true effects of the "Florida" update. Theories
will continue to swirl around the 'Net. So will rankings! But the
fact remains that "common-sense" SEO copywriting wins out in the long
run.

ALT text is far from being ignored, Karon. And SEO copywriting will never win out. Link mongers will always win out in Google.
 
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  #2  
Old 01-01-2004, 02:29 PM
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They're talking crap
 
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  #3  
Old 01-01-2004, 02:39 PM
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I find it utterly amazing that Google can determine if it's well written or has poor grammar.. especially when google can't parse the 2 words in this "webmasterforum".
 
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Old 01-01-2004, 02:41 PM
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Well at least that I've seen.. yet.
 
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  #5  
Old 01-01-2004, 02:50 PM
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If SEO copywriting matters at all - if it mattered in the least - then you'd be able to copywrite your way into the #1 spot for "computers". After all, the #1 spot is occupied by a page which doesn't even contain the word "computers". In fact, the first 3 pages listed for that search term don't contain the word "computers".
 
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Old 01-01-2004, 03:25 PM
rustybrick rustybrick is offline
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SEO copywriting matters after the user finds your site. If its just a page of keywords, then the user will leave. The experts of the article you posted made it sound like Google knows the difference between a well-written site and a poorly written site. i agree with you that it is hard to judge style (but there are many programs that can give points to essays based on the structure of the article but not style). So, SEO copywriting is important but only after you get the user to your page. I am kind of over simplifying but who cares.
 
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Old 01-01-2004, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
SEO copywriting matters after the user finds your site.
Rusty, that's copywriting. Copywriting is of utmost importance in marketing. That is, copy written to drive sales.

"SEO copywriting", however, is copy written to rank high in search engines. SEO copywriting is a waste of time, IMO.

SEO copywriting=worthless.
Marketing copywriting=extremely important.
 
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Old 01-01-2004, 04:15 PM
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It's really sad that newcomers to SEO marketing might mistakenly believe that Jill Whalen is actually an expert and listen to her "advice."

The saddest part is that her advice is basically to "do nothing" and claims this is how you get ranked well in the search engines.

I read idiotic claims like hers countless times before I finally came across what REALLY needs to be done to succeed in the search engines. Her "advice" is doing nothing but confusing newbies and wasting people's time.
 
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  #9  
Old 01-01-2004, 04:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeLloyd
It's really sad that newcomers to SEO marketing might mistakenly believe that Jill Whalen is actually an expert and listen to her "advice."

The saddest part is that her advice is basically to "do nothing" and claims this is how you get ranked well in the search engines.

I read idiotic claims like hers countless times before I finally came across what REALLY needs to be done to succeed in the search engines. Her "advice" is doing nothing but confusing newbies and wasting people's time.
Emphasis added.

The truth within that statement - it's absolutely beautiful.
 
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  #10  
Old 01-01-2004, 04:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnScott
Quote:
SEO copywriting matters after the user finds your site.
Rusty, that's copywriting. Copywriting is of utmost importance in marketing. That is, copy written to drive sales.

"SEO copywriting", however, is copy written to rank high in search engines. SEO copywriting is a waste of time, IMO.

SEO copywriting=worthless.
Marketing copywriting=extremely important.
John, I knew I should have taken more time to write this out. You are right but I should have said SEO copywriting is about doing both at the same time. Make sure a nice amount of keywords are in the page (with the anchor text, etc) AND make it easy to read and pitchy.

Sorry for my lazy post.
 
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  #11  
Old 01-01-2004, 04:59 PM
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Also, why do people dislike Jill so much? She has done well for herself, she is well known. Others might be better at what she does but she has a name because she was good at making a name. Lets give her credit for that.

And she knows SEO well, maybe not better than you or me but good enought.

SEO is not rocket science.
 
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  #12  
Old 01-01-2004, 05:08 PM
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I agree it's not rocket science.. but the articles I've read from Jill typically make it sound like some voodoo science that just isn't quite understandable by mere mortals. Kind of like "Build it and they will come". ptooey.
 
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Old 01-01-2004, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rustybrick
Also, why do people dislike Jill so much? She has done well for herself, she is well known. Others might be better at what she does but she has a name because she was good at making a name. Lets give her credit for that.

And she knows SEO well, maybe not better than you or me but good enought.

SEO is not rocket science.
Can you please point me to at least one example that leads you believe that Jill Whalen knows SEO well? I've never read an article by her that wasn't vague and misleading.
 
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  #14  
Old 01-01-2004, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rustybrick
Also, why do people dislike Jill so much? She has done well for herself, she is well known.
I dislike anybody who purports to be something they aren't. I dislike people who offer to perform a service and don't render an effective service.

I have a very, very sore spot for SEO's who do not perform. Before I got into this business, I was CFO for a marketing company. I paid $3,000 to an SEO like Jill Whalen. He just messed with the copy a bit, messed with the page titles, and called it a day.

Did that help? No. Did it do anything for our rankings? Absolutely not. These page elements SEO's are lazy bastards - thieves. They deserve to be tarred and feathered, IMO. They take hard working business people's money, and provide a worthless service in exchange.

Call it moral outrage - she shouldn't be charging money for ineffective page elements SEO.
 
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  #15  
Old 01-01-2004, 06:54 PM
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Wow - people dislike Jill here. I'll be honest, it upsets me that people think she is an SEO Godess when she is really not.

Phil Craven on the other hand has done some magic that might make him an SEO god.

But I always hate to name names. Jill does what many SEOs do, change titles, content and descriptions of pages. Some take it further by adding pages, doing mod_rewrites, link building, and other methods. Then you have those that do other things.

John are you saying you do not like SEOs that do only SEO and not the whole SEM package? Or just Jill?

FYI - My company really doesnt do "SEO". We just make sure all our sites that we work on currently are 'search engine compliant'. Why? Sites From Hell - What Do We Do?.
 
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  #16  
Old 01-01-2004, 07:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeLloyd
Can you please point me to at least one example that leads you believe that Jill Whalen knows SEO well? I've never read an article by her that wasn't vague and misleading.
I heard Jill speak (she is not a good speaker in terms of speaking) but she knows SEO. What is well? I don't know what you consider to be knowing somethign well or not. I hope she knows it well, she has been involved in this industry forever. If she doesn't she must have major issues.

She might not know everything but who does?

Its funny, most of what you read from well known SEOs are somewhat vague. They are kind of politicians. Misleading, I hope not but I see things written by Jill that might be misleading to an SEO novice.

Your points are taken.
 
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  #17  
Old 01-01-2004, 07:14 PM
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I don't want this topic to get heated, but I think there are some strongly held beliefs involved. But we can all be cool about it.


I think Jill doesn't know SEO. She has repeatedly stated that keywords in the URL (domain, file name, folder name) are not worth doing.

This article demonstates a huge amount of ignorance:

http://www.traffick.com/article.asp?aID=97

Note that I corrected her mistakes here:
http://www.internet-marketing-resear...ve-domains.php

That's just one of her mistakes. She spreads misinformation at an astonishing rate. She also stated numerous times that "off topic links" don't improve ranking at all:

Quote:
Let's say that Bob's Pizza Palace Web site has a link to Joe's Men's Clothing store. This probably won't help Joe's link popularity for the keywords "men's clothing." However, if both Bob's Pizza Palace and Joe's Men's Clothing Store are both located in the city of Boston, and people are searching for "men's clothing in Boston," the quality of that link, may have just gone up a little. There's now a common thread (Boston) between the sites.
 
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  #18  
Old 01-01-2004, 07:18 PM
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Sounds good. I really have not read much of her work, I wont start now.

I am satisfied.
 
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  #19  
Old 01-01-2004, 07:18 PM
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All opinion, I am in no way, shape, or form a SEO professional or educated in SEO world as most, but as I see it.. Jill is teaching SEO + Website Marketing.. I mean you dont want links to your Feminist site from a bangbus site.. how she is saying what she believes is wrong, but what she is actually sayingg.. is right.. (if ur not confused yet)
 
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  #20  
Old 01-01-2004, 07:27 PM
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I want to rank top for my keywords, so I want links from whoever. I don't care if they are links from Black Panthers, overweight mothers, or bald men. If you're serious about SEO, it's gotta be about inbound links.
 
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