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  #21  
Old 02-06-2004, 06:06 AM
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pctechbytes pctechbytes is offline
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I see what you mean.

Anyone COULD get great search engine rankings for a lot of search terms if they applied themselves.

However, I believe it is a futile effort if the visitor immediately hits the BACK button once they get to your site.

I believe the two concepts are married.

Otherwise, it's like peeing in the wind.
 
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  #22  
Old 02-06-2004, 06:09 AM
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Marketing content + SEO in the form of anchor text and inbound links may marry with my permission.


Content for the purpose of SE ranking is futile and should marry nobody.
 
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  #23  
Old 02-06-2004, 06:19 AM
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pctechbytes pctechbytes is offline
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Okay.

Good Content + Good SEO = a happy marriage with lots of kids and a new car with a dog.

I have seen Bad Content try to steal the wife and kick the dog on the way out.

 
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  #24  
Old 02-06-2004, 08:10 AM
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First off I would like to say it is nice to see John Scott and Jill on the same forum

http://www.webproworld.com/viewtopic...ghlight=#60096

:wink:


My site was a pr6 last month then it droped to a pr5 this month. People wanting to exchange links also droped this month from last month.

So when people say content helps you get links that is not what I see. PR helps you exchange links.

If a pr10 site wants to exchange links with me a pr10 page and I'm the only out going link how many people are going to say no I just do not like the text on that page.
 
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  #25  
Old 02-06-2004, 08:23 AM
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This is from Jill from the link above

Regarding this:

Quote:
"I don't do anything specific for any engine. The main way I optimize is through good keyword research, so I optimize for words people actually search for and incorporate them into the physical content of the page." As long as your page has good content and is optimized for relevant keywords, she says you should do well on the search engines.


I never said that part not in quotes (emphasis added). I would never say that and I don't want people to think that I would. Brittany didn't put it in the quote, but with a fast read, it looks like that's what I said to her when we chatted.

As long as your page has good content and is optimized for relevant keyword phrases, you have an okay chance of doing well in the search engines.

Not that you should do well on the search engines.

And even then, only if you do other things also, like have lots of relevant links pointing to your site, etc.
 
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  #26  
Old 02-06-2004, 08:24 AM
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This is the part I wanted you to see

"And even then, only if you do other things also, like have lots of relevant links pointing to your site, etc."
 
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  #27  
Old 02-06-2004, 01:40 PM
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Btw, just as a point of note - though I now shudder at the notion of "Content is King", I know I have repeated this phrase in my earlier days on IMR.

During my time here John has absolutely drummed into myself not simply the how of the importance of backlinks, but also the why.

Everyone is prone to make mistakes and errors of judgement. The key thing is being able to change your mind in the face of plain facts and present evidence.

I still see Content SEO as providing firm foundations with regards SEO in general - but in the sphere of Professional Search Engine Optimisation, those foundations absolutely need building on. And that means building with links, links, and more links.

2c.
 
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  #28  
Old 02-06-2004, 02:00 PM
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People often accuse me of having an agenda. Like it's a bad thing to have an agenda. Well, I just posted my agenda in that thread:

Quote:
Spiderbait,

I'm not trying to score points. My agenda is clear to many people. It involves discrediting SEO's who claim to put their clients in highly productive places in the SERPs, but are too ignorant or too lazy to build links when links are needed. The end result is placing their clients in the top of the SERPs for unproductive search terms that nobody searches for.


Most SEOs know that you need links. Most SEOs know that you're not going to get to the top of any highly competitive keyword without a ton of inbound links with optimized anchor text. But because they like taking peoples money, and dislike work, they don't go get the links. They don't go get the top rankings for highly productive, highly competitive keywords.

And they are forced into regurgitating the same old "content is king" line just to defend their inability/unwillingness to get links for their clients.

So you might take offense - as many people do.


And anybody here has the power to prove me wrong. From the start of this topic, I've asked for just one link to one SERP where a page has been placed top ten for a highly competitive keyword without the benefit of anchor text/inbound links.

I have yet to see such a SERP.

This was in reply to a professional SEO who stated earlier in the thread that he could get a top top spot on Google for "computer" without any external inbound links.
 
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  #29  
Old 02-06-2004, 08:07 PM
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Hello John,
You are really a surprising candidate, The best believer of links as far as I have seen, You should be aware of links are not the only way for ranking, Link is important infact very important, but again not in all the fields,
Come to our field for the phrase "search engine optimization" can you bring in a site without onpage factors(content, internal structure etc), Links cannot bring everything atleast not in all the fields,
When you say links are everything in SEO that is miss guiding for people who are new to SEO, they want to target non competitive phrases are you sure you need links there too, Nope they can rank just by onpage factors, So it depends,
There is a neat relationship between links and onpage factors, Onpage factors are long lasting but Anchor text boost is not long lasting, ANy search engine can devalue anchor text anytime to avoid abuse, but they cannot do that to onpage factors, so there is a neat balance between both, And please dont keep on showing "web hosting" as Example, show nice sample,
My percentage of importance for very competitive phrases will be
75% links <------> 25% on page factors+ branding,
Medium competitive phrases, it can go either way, any factor more we can rank,
50% links <--------> 50% onpage factors,
Non competitive small traffic phrases we can rank with 95% onpage factors so it depends,
 
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  #30  
Old 02-06-2004, 08:33 PM
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Quote:
Come to our field for the phrase "search engine optimization" can you bring in a site without onpage factors(content, internal structure etc), Links cannot bring everything atleast not in all the fields,

Anchor text alone can't get you top ranking for "search engine optimization"? Where did you get that idea?

"Computer" and "computers" are single word search terms - if anchor text can do it there, anchor text can do it anywhere. "Search engine optimization" isn't that difficult of a term.
 
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  #31  
Old 02-06-2004, 08:40 PM
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Do this search:

http://www.google.com/search?q=search+engine

And then tell me how many of those pages listed in the top of the SERP actually contain the search terms.
 
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  #32  
Old 02-06-2004, 09:56 PM
powerofeyes powerofeyes is offline
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My question do SEOs really have target words like "search engine" and "computers",
These type of words and phrases needs branding, It is mandatory to be an authority for these type of terms, If we need ranking for a word like "computers" we have to first be an authority in that area,
When you check the backlinks of "altavista" mostly they are linked with the anchor text "altavista" not "search engine" it is the Authority status and the branding that ranks them on top for search engines,
Similiarly for the words "insurance", "health" "computers" all require a site to have an authority status, it will be a bad idea to compare these words with SEO,
ANywhere you go I can assure SEOs wont target words like "search engine". "insurance", "health" "sex" etc, When you take the word "sex" commercial sites are rarely allowed to rank on top since a search for "sex" can be anything,
Klienberg gives an excellent explanation how Authority sites are calculated, Mostly they are not done by Anchor text,
http://www.cs.cornell.edu/home/kleinber/auth.pdf
There is a restriction and precalculation for these type of words, We cannot compare words like these with SEO, So give me an explanation on SEO point of view,
As an SEO do you think it is a good idea to aim for a word like "computers" and "search engines", if somebody does that they will be insane because it is highly impossible,
Normal ranking criteria doesnt apply for these type of searches, Links are important here but anchor text are not too important IMO,
That is why I said for very competitive words, Distribution will be,
75% links <-----> 25% branding + authority status and onpage factors
And you say "search engine optimization" is not a difficult phrase issurprising, an a link Monger it should be easy for you to get a site in top 10 do you have one,
when you do allintitle search for the phrase "search engine optimization" you get a result more than 150,000 means that many pages are aware of this, It is absolutely difficult to be there IMO,

VIJAY,
 
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  #33  
Old 02-06-2004, 11:04 PM
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is anchor text text at the bottom?

for example: my homepage is the only page found on google.

i have a supporters page with links, does those link's help those sites?
 
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  #34  
Old 02-06-2004, 11:11 PM
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John Scott John Scott is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by powerofeyes
These type of words and phrases needs branding, It is mandatory to be an authority for these type of terms, If we need ranking for a word like "computers" we have to first be an authority in that area,
When you check the backlinks of "altavista" mostly they are linked with the anchor text "altavista" not "search engine" it is the Authority status and the branding that ranks them on top for search engines,
Sorry, but you've been misled.

allinanchor: search engine

Obviously they do own quite a bit of "search engine" anchor text.

Furthermore, there is no "brand" algorithm. The ranking algo doesn't know "brand" from Abe. It only looks at on-page elements and how other pages link to that page.

It's pretty simple, in fact.


Quote:
Originally Posted by powerofeyes
Similiarly for the words "insurance", "health" "computers" all require a site to have an authority status, it will be a bad idea to compare these words with SEO
A search term is a search term. Whether it's "******" or "health", it's there due mostly to anchor text and inbound links.


Quote:
Originally Posted by powerofeyes
ANywhere you go I can assure SEOs wont target words like "search engine". "insurance", "health" "sex" etc
They will target whatwever keywords convert the best based on the amount of energy required to get top ranking. Search engine algorithms do not differentiate between companies that do SEO and companies that don't.


Quote:
Originally Posted by powerofeyes
Klienberg gives an excellent explanation how Authority sites are calculated, Mostly they are not done by Anchor text
LOL. Authority sites - the entire concept is based on linking. You are invoking the Authority System to prove that content matters? The authority system is ALL ABOUT LINKS.

I should also note, it's irresponsible to claim that Google is using this system when there is no evidence of it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by powerofeyes
75% links <-----> 25% branding + authority status and onpage factors
Branding can always be faked. It's called buying links.


Quote:
Originally Posted by powerofeyes
And you say "search engine optimization" is not a difficult phrase issurprising, an a link Monger it should be easy for you to get a site in top 10 do you have one
Why would I want to be top for "search engine optimization"? I have no respect for SEO as a profession. All it is is getting links. Shoot, takes more talent to work at McDonalds than it does to be an SEO.

Read some of the articles on this site and you'll see how much respect I have for SEO as a profession.
 
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  #35  
Old 02-13-2004, 12:59 AM
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Re: Links - A disservice?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnScott
Now, there are many Jill Whalen regurgitators. We all know this. There are many people in many forums regurgitating the old line, Content is King.

But here's an interesting concept - Links are a disservice. Yup. Fathom, a WebProWorld moderator, says:


Quote:
Simply though content does drive what links you get and any SEO that only relies on link development, or link manipulation, or content developmewnt or content manipulation and not all of the former is doing their clients a big dis-service by producing "less competitive advantage".

Links are the offspring of content unfortunately it doesn't work the other way. That's why Google is the way it is.
Any SEO who relies on link development instead of naturally occuring links is doing their clients a disservice?

There you have it - the very idea which has made many SEO's ineffective.

This is an idea preached by many, many SEO's. Jill Whalen is not the only one. Fathom is not the only one. There are many, many more.

Yet when you ask them to produce just one SERP where they have put their client in the top 10 for a highly competitive keyword on content alone, they never meet the challenge. They cannot meet the challenge. Anyone who knows Google at all knows it's impossible to rank a site for highly competitive keywords on content alone.

In SEO, Links are King.
He who knows not, and knows not that he knows not, is a fool.

Shun him.

He who knows not, and knows that he knows not is simple.

Teach him.

He who knows, and knows not that he knows, is asleep.

Waken him.

He who knows, and knows that he knows is wise.

Follow him.

Arabian Proverb

Fortunately, I know that I know and care not that you think I don't!
 
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  #36  
Old 02-13-2004, 01:02 AM
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Welcome to the forum, Fathom.
 
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  #37  
Old 02-13-2004, 01:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnScott
Welcome to the forum, Fathom.
Thanks John! I've been quite busy or would have stop by sooner.

You have indeed inspired me to educate members where ever I am. I appreciate the kickstart in my complacency. Next week you can say - you started it all. Thanks again!

Rod

shhhh... it's a secret!
 
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  #38  
Old 02-13-2004, 01:20 AM
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Links? I didn't start that. But I am trying to put an end to SEO which stops at page-tweaking.
 
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  #39  
Old 02-13-2004, 02:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnScott
Links? I didn't start that. But I am trying to put an end to SEO which stops at page-tweaking.
ya agreed - I really hate the one side or the other camp things... The guy that posted what is better front or rear tires - really summed it all up!
 
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  #40  
Old 02-13-2004, 02:12 AM
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John Scott John Scott is offline
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Quote:
what is better front or rear tires
No, Fathom, that entirely misses the point. Take away the analogy and you're left with :

which is better - effective SEO or lazy-a** ineffective SEO?

They are not the same. I thought we agreed on this at WPW - that SEO that stops at page tweaking - SEO that stops at page elements SEO - cannot compete with SEO which starts at page elements and continues on to link building.

Maybe I misunderstood you, but I thought we agreed on that point.
 
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