Does Google "cluster" themes for results?

I, Brian · Share | #1 (**permalink**) 10-29-2003, 02:44 AM

For the key word "Apocrypha" I have a page that is content optimised, has a few hundred backlinks, and a PR of 6. Top ranked are never more than PR 4 and have no more than 10% of my own link totals.

Yet my page is consistently ranked as the 11-13 down the Google results.

Here's the page:

http://www.comparative-religion.com/...ity/apocrypha/

and here's the rankings:

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=apo...=Google+Search

I had figured that content and PR was enough, but this consistent result shows that much more thought is requried.

I figure that one explanation of results is that Google is ranking sites according to the content of the site backlinks - ie, that Google may be clustering sites by themes on the index like AllTheWeb does, and therefore even very poorly weighted backlinks from themed sites are ranking higher than well-weighted links from unrelated sites.

In which case, I figure that that only way to raise it in the index (aside from keyword spamming

) is to therefore create a network of small networked of themed sites to create a new layer of backlinks?

Comments appreciated.

burgi82 · #2 (**permalink**) 10-29-2003, 04:52 AM

Your results surprise me a little bit as well. What about your anchor text? Are you using it properly?
Since when have you been on the spot you are on right now? For a few months already?

I, Brian · #3 (**permalink**) 10-29-2003, 05:42 AM

Few months already - and if you check the main comparative-religion site, I have the anchor text "apocrypha" on every single page of the main site and main pages in the forum.

All my external backlinks from forums more of less use the anchor text: "apocrypha - the missing books of the bible".

Hence why I'm so surprised - especially as the "Apopcrypha - law and order magazine" ranking above my page has a PR of 2 and mentions the word "apocrypha" once - in the title!

Btw - a quick note - to help with key word density I've shortened the title now to "Apocrypha - New Testament" only, and given the page it's own description using key words. If it suddenly rises I'll know it's due to those changes - but I'm not convinced any effect will be particularly large.

I did use to have all the links on noe page, and broke them into separate pages linked from the main in an effort to raise the rankings, but it seems to have had no real effect.

burgi82 · #4 (**permalink**) 10-29-2003, 06:12 AM

Hm, this is an interesting case. I really don't know why you are ranked so low for this keyword.
You said that you changed your title now, to try and see if it works. I always recommend somewhat shorter titles, but see if it works. I really don't know why you are not ranked higher. But could it also be that the PR of the sites ranked above you just didn't update yet?

biginjapan · #5 (**permalink**) 10-29-2003, 09:36 AM

If shortening the title doesn't work well enough you might want to try to shorten the anchor text as well for some of your links - or try to get some new ones with only "apocrypha" from decent to highly PR rated sites.

If you look at no. 7 as an example, the law & order zine, it should be possible to beat this one. Their backlinks are not that impressive. Perhaps their "apocrypha" dmoz link carries some extra weight but apart from that I'd think you would go past them in the rankings. With only one or two "apocrypha" only anchor links from decent rated pr sites, especially considering your PR beats most of your competitors.

I, Brian · #6 (**permalink**) 10-29-2003, 01:14 PM

I'd be interested to see if John Scott, Phil C, or Mel have any comments on this. I find this quite an SEO puzzle - certainly with my own experience, anyway.

mcdar · #7 (**permalink**) 10-29-2003, 01:57 PM

I would also consider keyword proximity. How close to the very beginning of the page does your keyword first appear? (other than your title)

PhilC · #8 (**permalink**) 10-29-2003, 02:00 PM

At the moment, Google is playing tricks with me again and not returning PRs for most of top 14 listings - including yours. To study what's happening with the pages above you, and comparing them to yours, would take quite a bit of time but, from what you've said, it shouldn't be happening.

However, it is happening and you need to take action. Do all or most of the page's IBLs include the word, "apocrypha"? Have you checked?

I can tell you that, even before Google was launched, Brin and Page talked about including the text around the links in the ranking algo, and they've probably done something about it since then so, to some extent, links may well be themed as you suggested.

<added>
I should have said that, when I'm placing a link on an off-topic page, just for the sake of the link, I usually write a little bit of on-topic text around it - especially in front of it. It's just in case Google has implemented B&P's thoughts.
</added>

John Scott · #9 (**permalink**) 10-29-2003, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcdar

I would also consider keyword proximity. How close to the very beginning of the page does your keyword first appear? (other than your title)

I think you're referring to keyword prominence. Keyword prominence is having the keywords first in the paragraphs, and towards the top of the page.

Keyword proximity is having the targeted keywords in close proximity. For example, if you were targeting "Seattle Web Design":

Quote:

Seattle, Washington web design

would have poor keyword proximity, wheras:

Quote:

Seattle web design

Has perfect KWD proximity.

Mel · #10 (**permalink**) 10-29-2003, 08:24 PM

Hi I Brian
This is very strange in my experience, but a few comments:
I see a couple of PR6 sites and several PR5 sites above you on my toolbar, so that is not too strange.

It may be that Google is reading and indexing the two nonblanking spaces you have included in your href (  APOCRYPHA) since Google does read and index them. Try changing your existing href from this:
[code:1:26aa88df42]<A class=leftLink
HREF="http://www.comparative-religion.com/christianity/apocrypha/" title="apocrypha of the new testament - the most complete list and set of apocryphal writings on the internet."><IMG
height=6 alt=""
src="/graphics/arrow.gif"
width=3 border=0>  APOCRYPHA</A>[/code:1:26aa88df42]

to this:
[code:1:26aa88df42]<A class=leftLink
HREF="http://www.comparative-religion.com/christianity/apocrypha/" title="apocrypha of the new testament - the most complete list and set of apocryphal writings on the internet."><IMG
height=6 hspace="4"alt=""
src="/graphics/arrow.gif"
width=3 border=0>APOCRYPHA</A>[/code:1:26aa88df42]

and see if that helps.

John Scott · #11 (**permalink**) 10-29-2003, 08:41 PM

Brian,

A while ago I put this page up:

http://www.internet-marketing-resear...opywriting.php

It has "seo copywriting" as the first words in the page title; in H1 tags; appearing once on the page as link text; and with less-than-abusive KWD density in the body copy.

I immediately gave the page several dozen links with the anchor text "seo copywriting".

But it stayed in the #2 position for that kwd phrase (PhilC was #1).

The optimization ogf the on-page factors was perfect. The only thing that increases ranking in situations like that is anchor text.

I've pretty much discarded on-page elements SEO. Why even bother with it when anchor text is so powerful?

Short answer: Get more links with the right anchor text.

I, Brian · #12 (**permalink**) 10-30-2003, 12:04 AM

Thanks for the comments, folks. I am definitely going to have to go back and really tackle this from the ground up, and far more aggressively.

Certainly will look to modify anchor text with on-topc keywords close by.

Actually, the number of backlinks has always seemed irrelevant - I used to link extensively to it from my chronicles-network (off-topic site), and at one point I'm sure there were around a 800 backlinks showing because of it - yet the ranking has always remained steady at site 11-13 in the SERPs. Maybe it's because of the B&P algo.

I could be in error with my percpetions - but, either way, I'm going to take a closer look at ALLTheWeb's clusters, and try out a couple of experiments with backlink themes and accompanying keywords with anchor text.

John Scott · #13 (**permalink**) 10-30-2003, 12:14 AM

Quote:

Actually, the number of backlinks has always seemed irrelevant - I used to link extensively to it from my chronicles-network (off-topic site), and at one point I'm sure there were around a 800 backlinks showing because of it

Multiple links from the same site don't really help much. Google appears to filter it - even though they show up as backlinks, I have learned to think of those as "hallow links". Impotent for SEO purposes, and good only for traffic.

I have some site with more links than you can shake a stick at. This site - IMR - has links on over 30,000 indexed pages. But they do very, very little for the SE ranking.

What matters is getting more good anchor text links from more IP's and more domains. (I'm thinking more IP's, rather than domains.)

biginjapan · #14 (**permalink**) 10-30-2003, 01:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnScott

Multiple links from the same site don't really help much. Google appears to filter it - even though they show up as backlinks, I have learned to think of those as "hallow links". Impotent for SEO purposes, and good only for traffic.

What if those same links all have different anchor text? Are all anchor texts counted?