Debate - Are graphics THAT important

[Leon]

I'm currently in a debate with this dude who's saying GFX are everything.

leon2kyap: how's the new site coming
CompLeX: Dunno, they guy thats designing it said it should be done soon
CompLeX: well, he said it would be finished last week
CompLeX: but its not lo
CompLeX: l
leon2kyap: i finish a design in a couple days...
leon2kyap: and thats if I really don't do the design for the 1st 2 days
CompLeX: Lol, but have u seen this design!?
leon2kyap: nah link me up
CompLeX: and its for free
CompLeX: http://www.beyondthepixel.com/client...kinz/main.html
leon2kyap: so? I used to build free sites all the time
CompLeX: yea, but he charges over 1k for a full site design
CompLeX: usually
leon2kyap: holy shit batman the Bandwidth is practically thrashing out of our asses!
CompLeX: lol
CompLeX: he works on site designs, logo designs, forum skins, everything
leon2kyap: it's not bad don't get me wrong
leon2kyap: but it's definetly not my style
CompLeX: lol
CompLeX: i dont mean to sound gay, but could u do half as good as that?
leon2kyap: it's not that hard to do really just takes alot of practice in flash and photoshop
CompLeX: these are his 2 sites, none of em are finished so theres only splash pages =P
CompLeX: http://simplistik.net
CompLeX: http://beyondthepixel.com
leon2kyap: great
leon2kyap: well good luck with that
leon2kyap: he's got talent but to be honest I'm doing work for businesses
leon2kyap: and u really can't be too flashy and have gradients everywhere
leon2kyap: hmm I have to do a template today...
CompLeX: lol
leon2kyap: my boss has me doing 1 a week
CompLeX: hes a pro graphics designer for reebok
leon2kyap: yeah I know
CompLeX: not everything he does is flash.
leon2kyap: no thats not what I mean
CompLeX: but the more people pay, the more flash comes into it =P
leon2kyap: I mean flashy as in graphics are like something u'd see on a gaming site
leon2kyap: flash is a bitch to use
CompLeX: takes skill
leon2kyap: I have skill
leon2kyap: it's just a bitch to use lol
leon2kyap: it's like 3DSMax
leon2kyap: it's a bitch to use
leon2kyap: I'm still trying to figure out wtf is with the logo lol
leon2kyap: I can't tell wtf is behind that wall a T shooting a Dualie or a T with flashlights
leon2kyap: hmm would u like to see the gradient of the menu remade?
leon2kyap: I can makethat in a few minutes
CompLeX: k
CompLeX: http://www.beyondthepixel.com/clients/mrb/
CompLeX: thats another site he made..
leon2kyap: not bad
CompLeX: lol
leon2kyap: he's lovcing that left alignment
CompLeX: lol.. u think your better dont u?
leon2kyap: no
leon2kyap: I'm just a web designer
leon2kyap: this is what we do
leon2kyap: we do our own thing and judge others
leon2kyap: I get judged by other designers same way as I'm judging him
leon2kyap: he works for Reebok so he can't suck
leon2kyap: it is a good design
leon2kyap: I do like it
leon2kyap: just not my thing if u get what I mean
CompLeX: lol, how can that not be your thing!?
leon2kyap: u see how he did the menu?
leon2kyap: it's based off a table going 100%
CompLeX: what u mean?
leon2kyap: with a left alignment with that particular Cell having the BG that is the same pattern used in the flash
leon2kyap: it's going to be interesting to see how he fills the content area
leon2kyap: thats why I haven't said whether I really like it or not
leon2kyap: I like ot so far but it's not what I would have done
leon2kyap: thus it's not my kind of thing
CompLeX: what would u have done?
leon2kyap: I would have made the logo consistant with the menu
leon2kyap: right now they are 2 different items
leon2kyap: it'd be understandable if that little logo changed every page with the page's title placed in it
leon2kyap: but at this point u really can't tell
leon2kyap: http://dynamic6.gamespy.com/~cscz/models/store/grad.jpg
leon2kyap: close as I could get to the grad without putting alot of time into it
CompLeX: Looks way to blury
CompLeX: no details and effects are at the top
leon2kyap: compare
CompLeX: the gradient looks totally different
CompLeX: just because its silver doesnt make it the same
leon2kyap: no it looks pretty damn close to me
leon2kyap: I didn't do the shadow and didn't pay extreme attention to all the detail
CompLeX: It goes dark too early
leon2kyap: like I siad thats as close as I'm going to get it without spending too much time on it
CompLeX: but thats exactly why his looks better
CompLeX: because u dont pay attention to the detail
leon2kyap: I didn't exactly copy/paste it and use the same colors
leon2kyap: dude it's gradient there isn't a whole lot to them
leon2kyap: a certain color placed in a certain position
leon2kyap: allowed to 'graduate' out into another color
leon2kyap: I've used and made more than I can count
leon2kyap: and like I said I didn't exactly take my time on it
CompLeX: Right
leon2kyap: I took my time cutting that goddamn T out of that CS: S pic
leon2kyap: I need to get my hands on that beta already
leon2kyap: use the Hl2 model viewer and make my life easier
CompLeX: fine
CompLeX: now id like to comment on this
CompLeX: http://www.v7n.com/forums/download.p...ac1b8326bf6c14
CompLeX:
leon2kyap: have at it
CompLeX: 1) The bar above the news items looks stupid, its just a bar with nothing at either side, it just suddenly cuts off
leon2kyap: it's called a flexible template. meaning it's ready for any kind of content it has to take
CompLeX: 2) the menu looks far too plain and the basic italic font just mkaes it worse
CompLeX: 3) i think the pics of the ct's/t's in the banner should have effects run on them, it looks stupid just having them cut out and pasted
leon2kyap: 1. The par you speak of I have no idea wtf ur talking about. #2. It's a Menu running off a menu script I wrote where it changes for all pages whenever I need to change it. Making it a graphics based menu kills load times and is a bitch to make and update
CompLeX: 4) u seem to have a thing for plain grey
leon2kyap: #3. The pics well idk just didn't feel like doing too much with it
leon2kyap: Counter-STrike is gray
leon2kyap: look at their website
leon2kyap: look at the CZ site
CompLeX: But look at our other sites
leon2kyap: look at the Steam website it's this awful navy green
CompLeX: most of em have grey
leon2kyap: Legendaryfrog.com was based off a template joseph drew out I just made it
leon2kyap: My journal is a quicky site and I'm not exactly up for very colorful things
leon2kyap: PHPBB services relates to the default, and commonly known, subSilver template
leon2kyap: there are reasons for everything I Do and I justify them
leon2kyap: the logo, idk I just got lazy really
CompLeX: yea, and u svaed the banner as a jpg, looks like its from paint
CompLeX: saved*
leon2kyap: it's in 8 quality
CompLeX: did u save to jpg in PS or paint?
leon2kyap: and idk what ur looking at
leon2kyap: it's PS 8 quality
leon2kyap: standard JPG quality
leon2kyap: Paint saves in 5
CompLeX: u should have it as high as it can go
CompLeX: otherwise it just looks cheap
leon2kyap: why?
leon2kyap: 10 won't show any more detail than 12 would
CompLeX: i dont use the jpg format anyhow..
leon2kyap: are you insane?
leon2kyap: what u want me to use .png? the net's worst format
CompLeX: or if i do, i save it to 12 quality
leon2kyap: or maybe .gif
leon2kyap: 12 is not the smartest thing espically for JPG images
CompLeX: and 8 is?
leon2kyap: u do 12 when u have a very large image that has alot of detail
leon2kyap: 8 is standard
leon2kyap: 10 is high enough
CompLeX: But why use 8?
leon2kyap: file size
leon2kyap: load times
CompLeX: your a graphics designer, u should know that it looks bad
leon2kyap: bandwidth
leon2kyap: I'm a grpahics designer that knows that there is more to web graphics than the actual graphic
CompLeX: lol
leon2kyap: the menu is a standard Menu
leon2kyap: CSnation, Planet Half-Life, any gamespy website for that fact
leon2kyap: even Gamespot uses Text based menu
CompLeX: And if your supposed to be a graphics designer, you should be doing more than a 'standard menu'
leon2kyap: it's all about what kind if traffic ur expecting and what they'll be using
leon2kyap: this is where u show that u don't know much about web design
leon2kyap: u go to any web designer or graphics artist for that matter, and they'll tell u load times are important
leon2kyap: and just because ucan make a graphical menu doesn't meanit's the best solution
leon2kyap: if I wanted to I could do it in flash with all sorts of nifty useless effects
CompLeX: Ah, are u saying that because the flash on my new webdesign takes real long to load?
leon2kyap: or I could make some nifty rollover graphics and use javascript
CompLeX: lol, its because its not finished..
leon2kyap: no
leon2kyap: I'm not talking about your site
leon2kyap: talk to Greftek from CDG
leon2kyap: he does this for a living aswell
CompLeX: Yea, but i mean good graphics designers
CompLeX: not greftek
leon2kyap: he won't tell u much different
leon2kyap: Greftek is a web designer
leon2kyap: graphics aren't everything
leon2kyap: they can make or break a site and u don't need the absolute best graphics
leon2kyap: the template isn't everything. It's how u fill it and put it to use
CompLeX: Yea thats nice and everything, but what looks better?
leon2kyap: your missing my point
leon2kyap: Graphics ARE NOT that important
CompLeX: Your obviously not a very good graphics designer if you think looks dont matter
leon2kyap: I didn't say that
leon2kyap: I said they aren't that important
CompLeX: leon2kyap: Graphics ARE NOT that important
leon2kyap: it's how u do it
leon2kyap: yeah I said are not THAT IMPORTANT
leon2kyap: as in they are but ur giving them more credit than deserved
CompLeX: grey again
CompLeX: http://legendaryfrog.com/news.htm
CompLeX: Anyhow, moving onto this site
CompLeX: a horrible green
CompLeX: Menu buttons are far too big
leon2kyap: It's a fan website
CompLeX: roll over looks good, but maybe they would look better if it wasnt that nasty green
leon2kyap: are u going to diss the band websites?
CompLeX: im not dissing them
leon2kyap: how they are too black or doo brown or too red
CompLeX: im judging them
leon2kyap: no this is a diss
CompLeX: no its not.
leon2kyap: yeah it is
leon2kyap: this is a fan site not ne thing like what u were judging before
leon2kyap: what a fan site looks like is based on what the site itself is based on
CompLeX: Im just judging your sites
CompLeX: it doesnt matter what they're for
leon2kyap: legendaryfrog.com is designed for the style of that artist
leon2kyap: no u can't do that
leon2kyap: without understanding the content u can't judge it
leon2kyap: it's like saying this site doesn't have enough gfx
leon2kyap: but that site gets over 100,000 hits a day
CompLeX: lol
leon2kyap: they have limited bandwidth and using any more graphics would kill it
leon2kyap: ur not seeing every aspect of web design
CompLeX: u should of done more with it
CompLeX: Neither are u
leon2kyap: ur focusing on looks
CompLeX: sure am
leon2kyap: u can't just focus on looks u have to think about how ur going to do everything
CompLeX: and your doing the oppositew
leon2kyap: coding
leon2kyap: load times
leon2kyap: graphics
leon2kyap: content
leon2kyap: how ur going to place the content
leon2kyap: what if u need to change something
leon2kyap: what if u need to add something
CompLeX: exactly
leon2kyap: there are ALOT of aspects that your not taking into mind
CompLeX: if u need to add somethiong
CompLeX: theres no room on that menu
CompLeX: the buttons are stupidly oversized
leon2kyap: that's a set Flash Menu
leon2kyap: easyily changed
leon2kyap: *easily
CompLeX: ive just noticed a big error
leon2kyap: if ur not going to actually consider whta the site is based off
leon2kyap: I'm not going to talk about this
leon2kyap: ur missing every other point to web design
CompLeX: The flash doesnt even fit in with the site outline
leon2kyap: no it does it's a graphical error joseph made

CompLeX:
CompLeX: i could go on and on with that site but u seem to be getting offended
leon2kyap: waht u say doesn't offend me it's the ignorance u show that is
leon2kyap: u fail to keep every aspect in mind
leon2kyap: something ALOT of people tend to do about web design
leon2kyap: which is why only a few 100 out of 1000s are actually doing it for a living as a stable job
CompLeX: leon2kyap: u fail to keep every aspect in mind
CompLeX: ...
CompLeX: cant u see what im saying?
leon2kyap: ur poking at the graphics
CompLeX: your not keeping the aspect in mind that graphics matter
CompLeX: u think that if everything works, it must be good
leon2kyap: ur not thinking that maybe there is a reason for it
leon2kyap: maybe Thats the way they wanted it
CompLeX: Yea, and maybe bush is a good pres
CompLeX: http://dynamic6.gamespy.com/~cscz/etf/index.php
CompLeX: now this 1
leon2kyap: if ur going to be a dick about this I'll tell u off straight off
leon2kyap: u know shit about web design
CompLeX: its proberbly the best out of all of em
leon2kyap: ur site alone shows it quite well
CompLeX: lol, i didnt make that
leon2kyap: u have a pro doing ur website which says enough
CompLeX: My job isnt to design
leon2kyap: then why are u arguing about something u don't do?
CompLeX: just because i dont design, doesnt mean i cant tell whats good and whats not
leon2kyap: like people bitching about a game
leon2kyap: u can't just look at the story or the graphics or the gameply
CompLeX: And all of your sites arent nice to look at
leon2kyap: u have to look at all aspects
CompLeX: they may work.
CompLeX: but thats not the point
leon2kyap: just like everything everyone gives me shit for when I diss a high scored model on CSN or ne thing
CompLeX: if i made a site from MS paint only, and made it work, it doesnt mean its a good site
CompLeX: none of your sites are good..
CompLeX: and i think its funny that you seem to think they are
leon2kyap: they're good enough to land me a 250$ job per template job doing basic stuff
CompLeX: lol
CompLeX: wow thats good
leon2kyap: u think ur friends good?
CompLeX: the guy thats designing my site gets more than that for a simple logo
leon2kyap: 100$ says he went to college
leon2kyap: probably has a graphics design degree
leon2kyap: I know people who can kick his balls and are my age
CompLeX: oki
CompLeX: who
leon2kyap: I don't think I'm good I know I am, I'm not the best and I know that aswell
leon2kyap: Say hello to Inochi
CompLeX: hi inochi
leon2kyap: he's a ametuer graphics designer from the Netherlands
leon2kyap: http://inochi.com
leon2kyap: he's my age
leon2kyap: no college
leon2kyap: no education in graphics what so ever
CompLeX: wow
CompLeX: you think that looks good?
CompLeX: 3 colors and some white
CompLeX: the logo is actually pretty good
leon2kyap: he's one of the community's best graphics artist
leon2kyap: if u think he sucks you really don't know shit about web design
leon2kyap: There is a word for sites that are too graphical and too 'flashy' u know what they are called?
CompLeX: This all started because i think your bullshit for judging my graphics designer buddy. Your not good enough to even start to judge him, which is why i think this whole thing is funny
leon2kyap: it's refered to as "Teeny"
CompLeX: You need to accept that you suck at graphics designing
CompLeX: seriously
CompLeX: just stop trying man..
leon2kyap: and u need to accept ur wrong
leon2kyap: and that u know shit about graphics designing
CompLeX: haha
leon2kyap: or web design for that fact
CompLeX: i suck at graphics designing, i know
leon2kyap: u can't judge what u don't know
CompLeX: but i also know i could make a site look so much better than your put together
leon2kyap: it isn't logical
leon2kyap: really?
leon2kyap: try
leon2kyap: get traffic to it
leon2kyap: keep up with content
CompLeX: Omg
leon2kyap: keep up with the 'trends' persay
CompLeX: traffic has Nothing to do with how a site looks
leon2kyap: what u know is shit and what u are is shit so don't try to say I suck at something you know shit about
CompLeX: i thought ud know that looking at your sites

[DaveyBoy]

leon2kyap: hmm I have to do a template today...
CompLeX: lol
leon2kyap: my boss has me doing 1 a week

A fabrication, no?

I agree the gradient on the site he showed is far better than the one u made, btw.

Graphics are important, but the content is much more so.

End.


EDIT: Re. what you added to it; I went to college, didn't do anything about web design or anything, learned other stuff, am self-taught and reckon i am pretty good at this sorta thing. Inochi is a great graphic designer, but an average to good web designer, thats my opinion obviously.

I don't really think you should call yourself a web designer either, but you can if you want

The other guy is a bit blinkered though.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by DaveyBoy

A fabrication, no?

I agree the gradient on the site he showed is far better than the one u made, btw.

Graphics are important, but the content is much more so.

End.

Oh I won't argue about that gradient, but like I said I didn't spend more than a couple mins on it, just to show him that it's really not that hard to do what that guy is over paid to do.

[DaveyBoy]

see my edit for more.

[Leon]

Just curious but what exactly do you mean by blinkered? I don't think I've ever heard anyone use that term before .

[DaveyBoy]

blinkered = like only looking at it from one view/direction

[Leon]

Originally Posted by DaveyBoy

blinkered = like only looking at it from one view/direction

Yes that's pretty much what I was telling him . He really got mad about it, I'm banned from the website that he lead (I was a moderator there). Just because your my superior doesn't mean I won't correct u :wink:. Except this place its pretty rare that I have to credit them...if ever

[UKZJ007]

Daaaaam thats long!

[Thanol]

This kind of reminds me of when people would say 'It's not the outside that counts it's the inside that matters.'

[Brian]

Graphics arn't that important. The majority of my websites only have 2 graphics.

[Fusion]

Originally Posted by Brian

Graphics arn't that important. The majority of my websites only have 2 graphics.

?

[imaginemn]

I don't think you can just say it's important or it's not important. It depends on the type of web site and types of services you are offering.

If you are offering web design, graphic, multimedia, design, etc., then graphics play an important role on your web site. Would you buy something from a graphic designer if their web site was a text only web site? I know I wouldn't.

If you are offering content, archives, scripts, directory, etc., then I can see where graphics don't play an important role and you can probably get away with a text only site with maybe a logo or a header.

The bottom line for me is branding. What type of impression do you want to leave your visitors? Since you don't have direct contact with your potential client/customers and the only initial contact is through your web site, your main purpose is to try to get them to stay there and get them to buy something or some of your services. Think of your website as a virtual salesperson. Are you most likely to buy from someone wearing a suit/business casual or from someone wearing torn up jeans and a T-shirt?

Even if someone visits your site and does not buy anything they might tell a friend, "I just saw this cool site, you should visit it". It could be that friend that ends up buying something from you because they need your product or service even though they had no intentions of buying. Word of mouth is the most powerful sales tool there is so you really need to give your visitors a reason to either come back or get them to send someone to your site. I know I am most likely to buy from some web site that puts a lot of time and effort on their site VS a site that can put it up within a couple of minutes.

imaginemn

[DaveyBoy]

yet another novel-length reply from imaginenm

you're very thorough mate

[chaka42]

i'm with imaginemn ... besides, it's usually the programmers or non-graphics people that say graphics aren't that important. like imagenemn said, it all depends on the type of site.

[imaginemn]

Excuse my lengthy posts at times. I am so used to explaining things to execs and they like long and boring details.

imaginemn

[Fusion]

Graphic overdose