What's wrong with this???

capman1 · 09-27-2006, 01:05 PM

I originally had this graphic on this customers website. I designed the graphic using an actual training photo of PIFD fighting a fire for the background, and the maroon bar on the bottom was an image map linking to the corresponding pages.

Either way, the customer did not like it. He thought the look was too "corporate" for a fire department website.

I was just wondering what everyone else thinks.

Thanks for any comments.

Matt B.

Atom · 09-27-2006, 02:50 PM

Looks ok to me. I wonder if the bevel and dropshadows are responsible for his "corporate" description.

IslaScotts · 09-27-2006, 02:54 PM

Please pass this on to your client:

Dear Fire Department;

If I were looking for information about the COMPETENT fire department, I would want their website to BE professional looking. I would want to know you had all your ducks in a row, fiscally, mechanically, AND professionally.

I really like this one, I think they are crazy for not liking it.

capman1 · 09-27-2006, 04:15 PM

Thanks for the comments. I'm not sure if it's the shadows or the Times New Roman text.

I think that he saw some of the other ideas I was playing with and he said he wanted my flamming letters on a black background. See below.

I personally liked the the other design and didn't feel like making all of the other topic pages with the flamming letters. It was quite time consuming layering those graphics.

Thanks for the input.

Matt B.

**3ncryptabl3_lick** · 09-28-2006, 09:23 PM

You should show up at the next fire, pointing at things and suggesting how you dont like it.

DaveyBoy · 09-29-2006, 05:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3ncryptabl3_lick

You should show up at the next fire, pointing at things and suggesting how you dont like it.

Why? The fire department haven't hired him to do anything for them.

OK, so the client didn't like his first design but not everybody likes every piece of work you will ever produce. Far from it, in fact. If you have negotiated a price for the finished graphic and have endeavored to change it until the person is happy, you will notice people start to find more faults than if you were charging per hour for any changes you make.

Make sure your pricing structure is water-tight to avoid things like this.

In my opinion, it was the Times New Roman font that made it look 'corporate'. I can understand what the guy means there, as it did have that kind of a slant on it. Maybe he should've been clearer in his initial brief as to the concept he was wishing for.

I personally liked the first one more than the second one you submitted, if you could have substituted the font for a sans serif font such as tahoma, arial, eurostile etc. you may have obtained a less 'corporate' look while maintaining your banner design. I would have done away with the drop shadows though, they looked a little over the top and out-of-place.

capman1 · 09-29-2006, 06:16 AM

Thanks davey', All of those are good points and valuable information.

Matt B.

**3ncryptabl3_lick** · 09-29-2006, 10:11 AM

DaveyBoy you must know something I dont. I just assumed the fire dept was the customer/client. I don't see anywhere that he is dealing with a 3rd party.

Anyways, then you should send someone else to the next fire and have them point at the thing you dont like...

capman1 · 09-29-2006, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3ncryptabl3_lick

DaveyBoy you must know something I dont. I just assumed the fire dept was the customer/client. I don't see anywhere that he is dealing with a 3rd party.

Actually (as I go back and read that), the fire department is the client. Having learned a lesson, I need to ask; should web developers have a different set of rates pertaining to the creation of graphics or graphic manipulation asside from the cost of the website? Sure It's easy to throw a piece of generic text on top of the page and call it good. But I like to impress customers with what I can do graphically. The first banner I made took almost 45 minutes before I was happy with it. Time is money but the fire department was on limited budget for this webpage. As it was, I had to add 95 dollars for domain registration and 1 year of web hosting which was no profit for me as I do not host sites. I kick that business over to ipowerweb as I have no servers to host my clients sites. So having to recreate a banner that took 45 minutes to make only to have to create another that took over an hour (and IMO does not look as nice) is a what is leading me to formulate a pricing strategy for graphics asside from the cost of the webpage. Is this a poor practice or a safe one???

Info is appreciated.

Matt B.

I hope that offers a bit of insight to the situation.

StupidScript · 09-29-2006, 11:42 AM

1) I agree that it's probably the typeface in the first logo that got the reaction. I like the image, though.

2) I like the second one, too, however it doesn't make me go "Ooh! Firefighters!" like the first one did.

3) During the first meeting with the client I'll always keep production items separate so they know what is involved, just like a plumber might do (x amount for parts, x amount for labor). We talk about broad concept, then existing market and competition, then 'where is content coming from', then which elements need to be generated for the new marketing piece (the site ... just like producing a brochure or a TV ad), and finally at what time I will deliver the initial quote. The elements to generate are not always clearly defined in the initial meeting, because some of that depends on the design and special features of the site, but you can usually figure they'll need a header graphic (maybe they already have one they want to use?), buttons and various other navigational items, and possible photos and illustrations.

As you define the required elements with the client, you'll find that there are many opportunities to determine where those will come from, i.e. "C: We need a logo.", "You: Do you want me to hire a graphic designer to make one, or should I do it myself? The designer will charge $50 per hour and I'll charge $30.", "C: Where will this site be hosted?", "You: I can arrange that for you, and it'll cost $45 to set it up and $50 per month after that...", etc.

The results of the discussion(s) lead to the quote and to the job ... with few(er) surprises.

**3ncryptabl3_lick** · 09-29-2006, 11:43 AM

Thanks for clearing that up capman1.

Personally, I make sue the client knows that they are footing the bill for the domain and everything that goes with that. I offer up options based on their needs and ultimately they make the purchase by their means and give me access rights for the job.

When it comes to pricing, there is something to be said about meetings, meetings, meetings... design meetings, scope meetings... and Phases... development, build and live. When it comes to websites anyways. Each of those are pretty specific to ones needs and offers a level of safety and security for both the designer and client.

I wouldn't say your practice is poor at all, but it doesn't seem like you took into account the fact that you are working regardless of whether they like it or not and you should be getting paid either way. The burden is on them to make sure you are on the right track, while the burden is on you to perform with the right information. Coming together with the client and formulating the plan based on the scope of the job is what is going to save you from having to deal with them. Ultimately you want them to have to say, 'oh i know i said that but i changed my mind'... thats what you want to hear, rather than 'oh i didnt say i wanted that'.

IslaScotts · 09-29-2006, 12:13 PM

I have a contract that every one of my clients sign. It is 4 pages long and is available for them to read before hiring me. It details everything out, what is included hat is not. What is copyrighted by me... what are the terms.

I hope that you have a contract.

Personally part of my appeal to clients is a have a philosophy that the I shouldn't get paid for earning your business. So I include free consultations and sample designs made especially for them. Up to 8 different designs. If you don't have a contract and would like to see mine I would be glad to send it to you.

capman1 · 09-29-2006, 01:12 PM

This is great information and I really appreciate it. I think the hardest part of starting a business is sorting all of these items out. My parents own several business's. (nothing like web development), but one thing they have always stressed to me is that many customers (usually those with the most money) are real talented for finding loopholes in contracts, policies, and such or simply try to confuse you in attempt at saving a few pennies. I'd like to avoid this from happening.

Thanks again, I reall appreciate this valuable information.

Isla', I'm going to PM you.

Thanks again,

Matt B.

**3ncryptabl3_lick** · 09-29-2006, 01:50 PM

I would advise again dropping contracts on anyone unless you are getting involved in a huge project. I've never had a gig, web'wise, production wise or otherwise that the use of a writen contract would have made better. Usually the right kinds of questions, a hands shake and verbal agreement is all it takes.

Don't forget the contract goes both ways, you could just as easily break it as they can and i doubt highly you would be prepared to go to small claims court over some mom and pop site because you got in over your head.

Just fair warning.

IslaScotts · 09-29-2006, 02:38 PM

Ya but that handshake can go both ways. I had it happen to me with a client out in California. After a month of work she "forgot" to tell me she had hired someone else, without paying me. She figured she could keep us both competing for her business this way so she could squeeze everything out of us. Thats when I said, good luck with your new client.. bu bye. And I made a contract. I have a personal attorney should anything arise, and I never go into business with a client I am not 100% sure of. I am not in this business to make money.. so I can afford to pick and choose my clients.

**3ncryptabl3_lick** · 09-29-2006, 03:19 PM

oo Isla, that sucks and good point too. There are many folks out there that just aren't as concerned about ethics as others. I guess all I was saying is that a contract can be a little scary to some, it certainly is a valid consideration if it makes you, the designer, and the client more confortable.

StupidScript · 09-29-2006, 09:44 PM

capman1 ... what do you think about modifying the original image by using the typeface that they already like?

It may be considered an experiment, but I have a hunch that they'll like the combination.

(And maybe make the bottom-menu text a little smaller, for the space, and maybe not make it a map, but rather a collection of images/links held together with a table? Better for many reasons.)

DaveyBoy · 09-30-2006, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3ncryptabl3_lick

DaveyBoy you must know something I dont. I just assumed the fire dept was the customer/client. I don't see anywhere that he is dealing with a 3rd party.

Anyways, then you should send someone else to the next fire and have them point at the thing you dont like...

By 'client' in my post I was referring to whoever the site is being made for, the person calling the shots so to speak. In this case, yes it's the fire dept.

capman1 · 10-01-2006, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StupidScript

capman1 ... what do you think about modifying the original image by using the typeface that they already like?

It may be considered an experiment, but I have a hunch that they'll like the combination.

(And maybe make the bottom-menu text a little smaller, for the space, and maybe not make it a map, but rather a collection of images/links held together with a table? Better for many reasons.)

Do you mean just used the typface I used to create the flaming letters. I have to go back to find out what font I used, but the flames would not look good on that background. Like I said, I will check the font and throw it on one of the unfinished layers. Give me a few minutes on that.

Also the fonts were a layer I created with white as a transparent color. I then layered that over a picture of fire that I had giving them the fiery look, so the font will only be just a font on the new image.

Stand by....

Matt B.