Send spammers the bill for cleaning up. Possible?

[waffles]

That would work for new sign ups, but you need a very obvious way for people who are already here to know about it too.

[Domestic Diva]

I don't know very much about website building and coding and such, but is something like this possible?

Let's say, John decides to make September 1st the day he will start enforcing a no-spam rule. On that day, some sort of full-screen pop-up box will....pop .. .up upon everyone's log in. The box will contain John's no-spam policy and a "click to agree". So, if you click that you do not agree, then you're essentially locked out of your own account until you click "I agree".

The pop-up would have to be enabled to work no matter if someone logged in on September 1st, or if they didn't log in until May, etc. Once you agree to the terms, then you won't get the pop-up message again. It would be a one-time thing for those who immediately agree.

ugh - did that make sense?

[waffles]

Just send everyone a PM. By continuing to use these forums you would be agreeing to the policy.

[Ferre]

Originally Posted by lucia

Oh? In the US, there would be legal disputes over whether or not your little blurb at the bottom of the site constituted a contract that binds the spammer. This dispute would never happen at the federal level, it would, at best, happen at the <i>state</I> level; we have 50 of them. (Failing that, you might get a judge in Amsterdam to say there is a debt.)

If there is no legally enforcable contract, there is no debt.

Also, if you managed to prove there was a contract, you would have to prove the facts of the case: Can you prove the person you billed was the spammer? Can you prove it to a judge?

Then, after you managed to prove the spammer did it, and there was a contract, you might get a judgement against the spammer.

Up to this point, you are unlikely to find a debt collector to take the case because you can't prove there is a debt! And bill collectors can get in big trouble trying to intimidate people into paying non-debts!

After you get a judgement (and exhaust any appeals) and it's agreed all around that a debt exists, the spammer you sued might be rather slow in paying. But now you might get a debt collector to help you out. If there's enough money, they might even file another lawsuit.

Oh, and guess what? If you sued the spammer in Illinois and they moved to Iowa, you will need to file a suit to collect the judgement because Illinois law doesn't apply in Iowa. This suit will be fairly easy to win, but you still need to file it!

I'd rather just write spamfilter plugins.

Well, did you know that the USA has only 5% of the world population? Did you know that most of the spammers originate in Eastern Europe and Russia? Did you know that in those countries you do not go to a judge first but when you have a terms of service (AKA contract) which are clear and solid (this needs looking into by someone other than me, as I am no layer) and leave no doubt for your visitors, the bills you send are legally valid?

Indeed there should be some sort of binding contract when people register to a site, but that is not new, there are many sites that have a terms of service you need to sign when you register.

[AlexCuster]

Originally Posted by Zap

I don't know how workable this solution is, but I like you're thinking on this, Ferre.

Exactly what I was about to type!

[Ferre]

Originally Posted by Zap

I don't know how workable this solution is, but I like you're thinking on this, Ferre.

I don't know how workable it is either, that's why I posted it to see if other people could think on how to make it workable.

There's two ways to approach the question, one is to look for reasons why it can't work, like Lucia did, another way is to use your brains creatively to find a legal solution to make it work.

Me personally I allways go for the creative solutions, it's how innovations are made.

[AlexCuster]

I guess there is no reason you couldn't do it and submit your claims to the debt collectors. I guess you don't have any risk in submitting all of the traceable spammers. Most of those debt collection agencies take X% of what they collect, after they collect it right?

[Ferre]

Yep, most debt collecors add an additional fee for collecting it and collect that from the person/company that needs to pay.

And when debt collectors sue to get the money, the court case is about the bill not being paid, not about what the bill was for and if it's fair or not, that's usually not the legal issue in such cases once it's in the hands of debt collectors. If people who do not pay had a good reason not to pay they should have sued the company that send them the bill before a debt collector is involved. Don't forget that when you send a bill there is allways a period of time before debt colllectors are involved.

I had a business for over twenty years and do have a tad of experience in such matters.

[thegamerslink]

Ok, easy fix.......charge something like $1-$10 membership to your forum, credit card is then on file, put in the end user license agreement that unacceptable posting of spam material will be charged at (nominal fee) per posting, something reasonable so the credit card companies don't balk and the judges if it gets there don't throw it out. At the same time though you have to be very specific and list out methodically exactly what your definition for spam postings on your particular forums are, Spam is one of those words that holds a thousand different interpretations and definitions, so you would have to clarify yours and they would have to digitally sign it to make it any where near legal, at the very least you make a buck and kick them out of the forum if they fail to abide by the spamming rules. There are already legal precedence set for the use of digital signatures, EULA's and all that good stuff so legally the pudding is in the details like I said.......

[Zap]

Originally Posted by thegamerslink

Ok, easy fix.......charge something like $1-$10 membership to your forum

The only problem with that is it is also an easy fix for pesky "problems" like increased membership and traffic.
It's difficult enough to get people to come to your forum and become members for free.

[lucia]

Originally Posted by Ferre

There's two ways to approach the question, one is to look for reasons why it can't work, like Lucia did, another way is to use your brains creatively to find a legal solution to make it work.

Me personally I allways go for the creative solutions, it's how innovations are made.

Ferre, if you want to try it, go ahead. Let us know if it works.

I do look at solutions to see if they look feasible, and if they don't I just skip that and move on to something else. As far as this one goes, I'd thin I'd get a better bang for time spent by writing better spam filters.

[Ferre]

Originally Posted by lucia

Ferre, if you want to try it, go ahead. Let us know if it works.

I do look at solutions to see if they look feasible, and if they don't I just skip that and move on to something else. As far as this one goes, I'd thin I'd get a better bang for time spent by writing better spam filters.

Yeah, and we all know how effective those spam filters are.

I'm just looking into the possibility of approaching the problem from another angle, I don't know if it would be workable but it's worth brainstorming about, no?

[Zap]

Originally Posted by Ferre

I don't know if it would be workable but it's worth brainstorming about, no?

Yes.

During my time on the internet, I have had more and more spam filters put into place as time goes by and more and more spam getting through it.
We need a different approach.

[lucia]

Originally Posted by Ferre

Yeah, and we all know how effective those spam filters are.

I'm just looking into the possibility of approaching the problem from another angle, I don't know if it would be workable but it's worth brainstorming about, no?

Sure. But you need to brainstorm with attorneys. My guess is you'll find the approach isn't cost effective.

On the spam front: I see a lot less spam appearing on forums and blogs than 3 years ago. Spam filters will never be perfect, but I suspect it's still cheaper than Ferre's suggestion. But, anyone who wants to give that a try, hey, it's their nickle!

[Ferre]

How's spending time and money designing spam filters cheaper than getting money out of it by billing them spammers?

[lucia]

Originally Posted by Ferre

How's spending time and money designing spam filters cheaper than getting money out of it by billing them spammers?

Ferre, I may be entirely wrong on this. However, I suspect writing spam filters and monitoring the spam (as V7N does) is cheaper than doing this:
1) Spending time and effort writing TOS that create a legally enforcable debt in the countries where spammers reside.

2) Spending time and effort trying to trace the spammers and identify their names and billing addresses.

3) Spending time and effort doing the paper work to generate the bills and mail them to the correct places. (And spending time to maintain paper work to prove you mailed them as required by law.)

4) Going to court to prove the TOS were legally enforceable and getting a judgment saying the bill was enforcable.

5) Defending against countersuits by both spammers and people you mistakenly bill and pursue for payment.

6) Paying when you lose the counter suit.

7) Not collecting anything from the spammers in the end because judges may decree there was never a legally enforceable TOS.

Mind you: You can consult an attorney and try to discover whether or not it's possible to craft a TOS that creates a legally enforcable contract in the countries where the spammers reside. You can also ask them what steps you really need to take to collect.

After you do that, you'll have a better idea whether or not your idea might work and/or if it's cost effective.

If you suceed, other forums will imitate you. After that, the costs will go down because there will be court precedents showing the TOS really created a debt, and spammers will know they are likely to lose in court.

However, I suspect the first forum to do this is at risk of spending lots of money trying to litigate. (Just my theory.)

[Ferre]

True that.

[The American Voters]

I used to do subrogation for an insurance company and have tons of contacts with debt collectors

They normally take 33% but if you give them large amounts of business you can work out a deal at around 25%.