E-mail harvesting and mailing software?

[brickred]

i think now days email marketing is doutful every one is thinking about the spam

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by dave conz

Sorry Brian, if it looks like spam and smells like spam, it's spam.

Aside from that, any non-moronic site owner will hide their email addy from your evil spammy email harverster anyway.

It's a good think I've known you long enough to give you the benefit of the doubt. However you have just gone down in my estimations. Take a hint - using spam software will not win you any friends.

What on earth are you talking about, Dave??

Here's the site I'm trying to push:
http://www.comparative-religion.com/

CR is a non-profit and non-biased collection of world religious texts and essays. It also hosts the largest single collection of Christian Apocrypha on the internet (ie, the books that were left out of the New Testament).

It has AdSense on the top of the pages - that is the only commercial feature of the site.

And here's how I'm looking to get the word out - via a directory linking to other websites with religious themes:

http://www.comparative-religion.com/directory/index.php

The directory is a way try and hook up with relevant webmasters still looking to promote interfaith dialogue in an environment that favours extremism and hate sites. Although I've included links to major religious tolerance portals, link exchanges with smaller websites is a good way to network together.

How is using software to contact these webmasters therefore "spam"?

If it's commercial, then it's spam. If it's unsolicited, then it is simply unsolicited.

I wouldn't touch the software for promoting commercial services, let alone link exchanges for my business sites, precisely because I would then be working in a strictly commercial environment - and accusations of actual "spamming" would be far nearer the truth.

[webmastery]

Geez, Dave. No need to hate Brian because he went over to the light-grey side.

[dave conz]

Sorry Brian if I misinterpreted. However...

I subscribe to the common view of spam as being unsolicited email. I care nothing for the sender's motives or agenda. Spam is spam - it creates the same problems whether or not the sender has altruistic motives.

Using email harvesters is an unreliable and very annoying way to gather contact details. For example, what about the people who have their email addresses shown somewhere on one of these pages, but who aren't the appropriate people to contact? One more spam for their inbox. It's very easy to say "sorry - just delete the email", but this is exactly the same BS that spammers use.

I spend a lot of time every day dealing with people who made a half-arsed attempt to make sure I was the right person contact. Every day I wade through emails thinking "You lazy SOB - why didn't you make the effort to find the right contact person instead of sending this to me?"

IMO if you want to contact someone, make the effort to get their details manually or find some opt-in way of doing it. Email harvesters are at best a clumsy, lazy method. By using them, you are prepared to waste other people's time in order to save your own time.

Put it this way - if I knew you had acquired my addy through a harvester I would have nothing to do with you. If I knew you had made the effort to contact me personally I would be more than happy to listen to any pitch you wanted to give.

BTW, "hate" isn't really something I apply to people. I hate harvesters but I certainly don't hate Brian

[I, Brian]

Heh, no problem Dave.

I'm actually probably going to stick with Arelis because I really need to screen the sites I'm sending to. On my first Arelis run I didn't check properly, and ended up e-mailing my domain registrar and the Whitehouse by accident.

Although arelis will be slower (because it doesn't mass e-mail), at least it will be better targeted.

[dave conz]

sweet

[jwalsh]

I consider anything unsoliciated spam.... especially if they tell me my "member" is too small.

[Runilo]

Why is it, that whenever someone asks a questions such as this, he is rather attacked then given what he aks for.

People, this is a marketing forum, not a religion forum. The only reason why spam still exists is because it works from a marketing point of view, and since this is a marketing forum, why not give marketing advice and information rarther than telling us what you like and don't like.

I asked a question like this about mass emailing not long ago and got over 20 replies, however not even one tried to answer the question.

However, not to be just as i wrote about and writing anything else than an answer to the qustion, or even attempting to answer the question, i will try.

I read an article not very long ago, that most websites these days use scripts nowadays so that harvesters can't find the emails, so i would think that using a harvester would not give you much of a result. Perhaps Arelis is the way to go

[dave conz]

Why is it that whenever a wannabe spammer asks other people how to spam them, he thinks they will help him?

Here's my marketing advice: Don't spam.

[danny boy]

well, the thing is... if you find a site that might be interested in your services or products, and you contact the webmaster to tell him you had a good offer that he might need... is that considered spam as well??? just wondering...

[JohnG]

Runilo wrote,

Why is it, that whenever someone asks a questions such as this, he is rather attacked then given what he aks for.

People, this is a marketing forum, not a religion forum. The only reason why spam still exists is because it works from a marketing point of view, and since this is a marketing forum, why not give marketing advice and information rarther than telling us what you like and don't like.

There is a very simple reason.

By and large, the Internet community considers folks who send commercial email in bulk to people who did not ask for it and don't want it as abusers and this form of behaviour as abusive.

This is why spammers use all kinds of techniques to hide their identity.

Trying to justify this type of behavior because "it works from a marketing point of view" ignores an underlying reality.

Unlike the offline world, where sending direct marketing mail through the post office is an acceptable form of marketing, in the online world this is not the case.

From a business perspective, one is putting one's on self interest ahead of everyone else.

But the Internet is a highly decentralized co-operative environment. Email works because of this co-operative environment.

The Internet was not designed so that marketers could send out millions of emails to people daily on a random basis to promote a particular product.

This is why it is generally understood that permission based marketing is acceptable, but spamming is not.

By sending out unsolicited bulk email, (UBE) one is taking advantage of this co-operative environment for one's own benefit at everyone else's expense. This is viewed by many people as abusive behavior.

Having said this, because folks have persisted in spamming and because by and large UBE is false and deceptive, the way email works is about to fundamentally change.

The underlying change? The 'paradigm' is going to shift.

The email infrastructure will no longer be open. We will move to a 'closed' environment.

As a first step, to send email, the sender will need to identify himself through an independently verifiable mechanism.

Oh sure, spammers will persist and attempt to foil these efforts. I suspect for a while there will be a running battle. But ultimately at the end of the day, the move to a 'closed' environment will be complete.

Will this completely stop UBE? Nope. Will criminal elements persist in phishing attacks? Yep.

But don't expect to come into a public marketing forum for webmasters, where the objective is to share insight and ideas on how to market your website responsibly and expect folks not to attack you for seeking guidance on how to spam.

Why? Because spammers market in a fashion that frustrates and angers most webmasters who have to deal with the ongoing UBE deluge on a day to day basis, along with the resulting cost, harm and expense to their business.

John Glube
Toronto, Canada

[Dark_Matter]

Originally Posted by webmastery

Geez, Dave. No need to hate Brian because he went over to the light-grey side.

Light-grey side....funny, I'm gonna steal that, thanks.

[Runilo]

But don't expect to come into a public marketing forum for webmasters, where the objective is to share insight and ideas on how to market your website responsibly and expect folks not to attack you for seeking guidance on how to spam.

Yes this is a marketing forum for webmaster, for all of which the goal with marketing is making a profit, and it is evident that spam is profitable.

to market your website responsible highly depends on the goal of the website. If the goal is a pure money making scam, then spam is indeed responsible.
Take for example a site which buys traffic through spam with the sole purpose of serving advertisements to the user, which outrank the cost of the spam. How is that not responsible??
What is objective of this forum is not thought to be the same to everyone.
Marketing is marketing

I believe this forum is not ment for discussions about morality and ethics, but how you can market a website in order to make it profitable.

"Morality is the first step towards failiure in marketing" as one highly though of economist said.

Nobody replied "Well, i don't think you should do that because it might diminish the reputation of your website, i would rather do....."
No, he was atacked with useless personal critisism rather than to be given objective information in a marketing forum.

Sorry if i sound harsh and irritated, and i am not a spammer myself, nor have i ever tried it, but if there is anything that i think is worse than spam, then it is other people giving out pointless personal critisism about what they believe is right or wrong and diminishing other persons.

[dave conz]

Robbing banks is profitable. Would you expect to go to a conference of bankers and ask for advice on how to rob them?

Spamming affects us all. As an end user it severely limits the usefulness of email, and as a server owner it costs me thousands of dollars per year. As far as I'm concerned, spammers are robbers - they knowingly cost me money so they can make money for themselves.

Spam is not welcome and anyone who wants to learn how to do it will get a hostile response. That situation is not going to change no matter how much you try to justify spam as a legitimate marketing technique.

Like it or not, most of the people here are ethical. If you would prefer to discuss unethical practices without being judged, I believe there are other forums and newsgroups which may be able to accommodate you.

[John Scott]

Originally Posted by dave conz

Robbing banks is profitable. Would you expect to go to a conference of bankers and ask for advice on how to rob them?

LOL


Good response, Dave.

[Caped Crusader]

Originally Posted by JohnG

Unlike the offline world, where sending direct marketing mail through the post office is an acceptable form of marketing, in the online world this is not the case.

In my offline world, it's not at all acceptable. I despise junk mail even more than spam e-mail. Direct mail and spam campaigns are lazy methods of marketing by unimaginative people.

[JohnG]

CC

In my offline world, it's not at all acceptable. I despise junk mail even more than spam e-mail. Direct mail and spam campaigns are lazy methods of marketing by unimaginative people.

Well, I have heard direct marketers called all kinds of things, but I gotta admit calling offline direct marketers "lazy and unimaginative" does take the cake.

But, then hey CC ... go for it.

However, there is a clear distinction.

Why? To carry out direct marketing in the online world, the only responsible way to do this is with prior permission.

In the offline world, you can go down to your post office, ask to be removed from mailing lists. So, if you don't like these lazy and unimaginative direct marketing mail folks, bang-o you are gone. No more bulk mail delivered to your house.

Not so in the online world, which is one of a number of reasons why the online community calls for prior permission.

As an aside, here is an interesting article posted by John Levine titled explaining the spam problem to marketers which helps to point out the differences. Enjoy.

John Glube
Toronto, Canada

[bcombs]

Originally Posted by Caped Crusader

In my offline world, it's not at all acceptable. I despise junk mail even more than spam e-mail. Direct mail and spam campaigns are lazy methods of marketing by unimaginative people.

One of the big differences between direct mail and bulk email is that in the former, the sender pays the entire costs. In email, the recipient bears the bulk of the cost. That makes a big difference in my book.



Brian

[Caped Crusader]

Originally Posted by JohnG

Well, I have heard direct marketers called all kinds of things, but I gotta admit calling offline direct marketers "lazy and unimaginative" does take the cake.

But, then hey CC ... go for it.

The CEO of the largest direct mailing company in the southeast is a friend of a friend. Lazy and unimaginative were being polite. There is nothing creative about sending out a mass mailing, and I think it's the lowest form of advertising. In fact, companies that send me unsolicited junk mail will never get my business, even if I think they are promoting a good deal.

The friend of a friend's company offered me a good deal of money to build a web site for them (I would call a company of this size, that had been in business for ten years, and still didn't have a web site in the year 2001 lazy and unimaginative, among other things). I turned down the offer, which would have been the second-highest earner of all my freelance jobs, because I had no desire to be associated with such a company.

Now I only do freelance work for independently owned businesses, or artists/musicians. I refuse to consider offers from corporations now that I can afford to be selective about my work.

Originally Posted by JohnG

In the offline world, you can go down to your post office, ask to be removed from mailing lists. So, if you don't like these lazy and unimaginative direct marketing mail folks, bang-o you are gone. No more bulk mail delivered to your house.

Been there, tried that, still get it. I don't get as much... I'm willing to concede that much. But I still get more than any one person should receive.

Originally Posted by bcombs

One of the big differences between direct mail and bulk email is that in the former, the sender pays the entire costs. In email, the recipient bears the bulk of the cost. That makes a big difference in my book.

With direct mail, natural resources are wasted. It takes trees to make paper, and I don't want a forest cut down to send me offers for credit cards, address labels, magazines, or any other junk I don't need. I also don't like the idea of landfills overflowing with garbage bags full of junk mail.

It doesn't cost me anything to receive e-mail spam (except a moment of irritation). It might cost my ISP money, but then I pay them $40 a month. When it comes to the sites I administer, I (or my clients) pay a hosting company.

Spam e-mail doesn't result in the tremendous physical waste that direct USPS mail involves. That's a big difference in my book.

[JohnG]

With direct mail, natural resources are wasted. It takes trees to make paper, and I don't want a forest cut down to send me offers for credit cards, address labels, magazines, or any other junk I don't need. I also don't like the idea of landfills overflowing with garbage bags full of junk mail.

Now I have to laugh. Why?

You look at the direct marketing mail industry and see a waste of resources.

While I look at it as a question of managing resources and using these resources wisely to create wealth.

The basic building block, the forests are renewable if properly managed and the finished product, paper can be recycled.

You decry the consumer society we live in. While I see an attitude change as we come to place a greater premium on information and knowledge.

Interesting. You perceive unsolicited bulk email, viruses, phishing and all the rest as less of a threat.

While I see the lack of understanding that there are limits even on the Internet, though it is a world of bites and bytes, as perhaps a far greater threat.

Especially as we make the transition from a resource based, industrial nation state economy to a global economy based on information and knowledge.

Fascinating. The lesson for marketers? Come to understand and then frame the perspective of your potential customer.

John Glube
Toronto, Canada