Why can Barack Obama not pass a simple security check?

[thegamerslink]

Sorry about the bad link these should work
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q...Q0NTVlYjAzMmY=
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q...M4Y2MwM2ViMjY=
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/l...,1053585.story
http://globallabor.blogspot.com/2008...off.html#links

[thegamerslink]

Originally Posted by ranter

Gamer, you were saved by the bell… Bob Barr

Bob, I am sure you know where to find it so without delays get last debate video, watch it and listen carefully McCain’s mentioning factcheck as his source

Bob is correct, I often forget to mention such things as I assume them common knowledge, my apologies.

Example, I am currently in the process of completing my Bachelor's in IT. There is constant talk and reminding in every communications class, actually every class, about using peer reviewed material to use as documented sources and not places like wikipedia. And it is up to the professor, some of them are die hard don't touch it if you want a good grade while others, you have enough sense to know what may or may not be true, and know it a source that is not 100% so you can use it but they suggest backing up the wikipedia source with other sources as well.

The same is true for organizations like factcheck.org and the like. All the fact checking is not done by a single individual, nor in many cases a single editor. While an organization can state that it is non-partisan, and perhaps that is even the intention, often those that work within the organization can not help but be either consciously or subconsciously biased at least some of the time.

[Ferre]

Oliver North
Gordon Liddy
Rev. Hagee
Pastor Rod Parsely
Rachelle Shannon
Marilyn Shannon
Rick Davis
Anthony Bouscaren
Lenore Annenberg

^^ People McCain is "palling around" with. This guilt by association thing of him could blow up in his own face.

[thegamerslink]

There is a fundamental difference between knowing, or having relations with, and actually embracing their individual ideas and practicing them. It is not guilt by association, it is a question of personal actions. And not only did he form alliances with these people, support their work and beliefs on a personal level, but then denied that he did when questioned about it. That is my issue, the half truths, and lies about the depth of the relationships and the practices he has supported and taken part in.

[Ferre]

Originally Posted by thegamerslink

There is a fundamental difference between knowing, or having relations with, and actually embracing their individual ideas and practicing them.

Didn't Obama distance himself publicly from Ayers activism? According to Obama spokesman Bill Burton;

Senator Obama strongly condemns the violent actions of the Weathermen group, as he does all acts of violence.

What is it in the above statement that you don't understand?

[thegamerslink]

When did he denounce the actions? Back in 1995 when Ayres was kicking off his political career, when he was assisting these organizations while he was in the Ill. state Senate, when he was sitting as Senator in Washington, or after he was initially asked about it on the campaign trail, or after he realized that the questions weren't going away?

Just like he did with his relationship with Rev. Wright. He defended him, he then denied knowing of his actions, he then said he can't distance himself from him but he denounces his statement, then he left the church. Had he done it when he initially heard him making these statements it would be believable, had he shown an ounce of regret or responsibility after it was initially brought up it might hold a little weight, but the fact that repeatedly with every one of these issues he follows the exact same method of denial and reluctance until it is a political survival issue.

[Ferre]

Well, aparently McCain isn't even reqired to distance himself from that long list of criminals he is associated with. And apparently you are not bothered with him associating with a long list of crminals either. When MCain is involved you don't care who he hangs out with, which is a bit odd, seeing how you find it sooo important when it concernes Obama.

Don't get me wrong, I do not defend Obama per se, I just fail to see why you don't have the same standards for every politician. In my book they are both weazels, but somehow you don't see that McCain is a weasel too.

[Bob Barr]

Originally Posted by thegamerslink

When did he denounce the actions? Back in 1995 when Ayres was kicking off his political career, when he was assisting these organizations while he was in the Ill. state Senate, when he was sitting as Senator in Washington, or after he was initially asked about it on the campaign trail, or after he realized that the questions weren't going away?

Just like he did with his relationship with Rev. Wright. He defended him, he then denied knowing of his actions, he then said he can't distance himself from him but he denounces his statement, then he left the church. Had he done it when he initially heard him making these statements it would be believable, had he shown an ounce of regret or responsibility after it was initially brought up it might hold a little weight, but the fact that repeatedly with every one of these issues he follows the exact same method of denial and reluctance until it is a political survival issue.

In the cases of both Ayers and Wright (and I suspect shortly in the case of ACORN), Obama's actions were, and are, motivated out of pure political expendiency, not principle.

His associations with Ayers, Wright, and ACORN were initially necessary to achieve his success in Chicago politics and he benefitted from them greatly. Once these associations started to get noticed by people, though, Obama had to slowly and carefully distance himself from them. Not completely, mind you, you can't bite the hand that nurtured your political aspirations.

That's the reason behind his multiple claims on Ayers.

(Statements within "< >" are my paraphrasing of his statements.)

One week, it's <He just lives in my neighborhood.>

The next, after it's been discovered that they've served on boards together, it's <Well, we never shared a great deal of thoughts with each other.> (How do you run the board of a project that dispenses about $100 million dollars and not share a great number of thoughts with the founder of that organization?)

Regarding Ayers founding of the Weather Underground domestic terrorist group, one week, it's <I didn't know about Ayers' past>. The next, it's <I had assumed that he had been rehabilitated.>

[Bob Barr]

Originally Posted by Ferre

Oliver North
Gordon Liddy
Rev. Hagee
Pastor Rod Parsely
Rachelle Shannon
Marilyn Shannon
Rick Davis
Anthony Bouscaren
Lenore Annenberg

^^ People McCain is "palling around" with. This guilt by association thing of him could blow up in his own face.

For there to be any similarity, something really has to be similar:

How long was McCain a member of either Rev. Hagee's church or Pastor Parsely's? Twenty or so years like Obama was at Wright's? Ten? Five? One?

Has McCain ever attended services regularly, or even irregularly, by either of these two men as Obama did at Wright's church?

Was McCain married by, or had any of his kids baptized by, either of them as Obama did with Wright?

Did McCain title a book after a sermon by either of them as Obama did with Audacity of Hope?

[Ferre]

You only talk about Hagee, what about Marilyn Shannon who served as a McCain delegate at the Republican National Convention. And Gordon Liddy; In 1998, Liddy's home was the site of a McCain fundraiser. Over the years, he has made at least four contributions totaling $5,000 to the senator's campaigns--including $1,000 this year. Or McCain's campaign manager Rick Davis who was paid more than $30,000 a month for five years as president of an advocacy group set up by the mortgage giants Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to defend them against stricter regulations, Or McCain's meetings with Bouscaren, who is a racist white supremist, At these meetings McCain fought against the Martin Luther King holiday. And what about Lenore Annenberg? McCain put out a list of 100 former ambassadors who are supporting his campaign. Number two is Lenore Annenberg, the wife of Ambassador William Annenberg, the founder of the Annenberg Institute of Reform, which funded the Annenberg Challenge, which once had two famous board members: former “domestic terrorist” William Ayers and Sen. Barack Obama.

Why not apply the same standards you apply to Obama to McCain eh?

[Ferre]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/10/op...in&oref=slogin

As the lead federal prosecutor of the Weathermen in the 1970s (I was then chief of the criminal division in the Eastern District of Michigan and took over the Weathermen prosecution in 1972), I am amazed and outraged that Senator Barack Obama is being linked to William Ayers’s terrorist activities 40 years ago when Mr. Obama was, as he has noted, just a child.
Although I dearly wanted to obtain convictions against all the Weathermen, including Bill Ayers, I am very pleased to learn that he has become a responsible citizen.
Because Senator Obama recently served on a board of a charitable organization with Mr. Ayers cannot possibly link the senator to acts perpetrated by Mr. Ayers so many years ago.
I do take issue with the statement in your news article that the Weathermen indictment was dismissed because of “prosecutorial misconduct.” It was dismissed because of illegal activities, including wiretaps, break-ins and mail interceptions, initiated by John N. Mitchell, attorney general at that time, and W. Mark Felt, an F.B.I. assistant director.
William C. Ibershof
Mill Valley, Calif., Oct. 8, 2008

[Bob Barr]

I am amazed and outraged that Senator Barack Obama is being linked to William Ayers’s terrorist activities 40 years ago when Mr. Obama was, as he has noted, just a child

Nice straw-man argument -- Nobody is linking Obama to Ayers's activities of 40 years ago.

[Ferre]

Originally Posted by Bob Barr

Nice straw-man argument -- Nobody is linking Obama to Ayers's activities of 40 years ago.

Are you stupid or what?

If Ayers had not been doing the stuff he was doing 40 years ago we wouldn't have Palin teling people that Obama is "palling with terrorists" which is a reference to Ayers actions 40 years ago.

You just proved yourself not worthy of any serious conversation, talking any further with you is an insult to my intellect, I'm out of this coversation now, beye.

[Bob Barr]

Originally Posted by Ferre

You only talk about Hagee, what about Marilyn Shannon who served as a McCain delegate at the Republican National Convention. And Gordon Liddy; In 1998, Liddy's home was the site of a McCain fundraiser. Over the years, he has made at least four contributions totaling $5,000 to the senator's campaigns--including $1,000 this year. Or McCain's campaign manager Rick Davis who was paid more than $30,000 a month for five years as president of an advocacy group set up by the mortgage giants Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to defend them against stricter regulations, Or McCain's meetings with Bouscaren, who is a racist white supremist, At these meetings McCain fought against the Martin Luther King holiday. And what about Lenore Annenberg? McCain put out a list of 100 former ambassadors who are supporting his campaign. Number two is Lenore Annenberg, the wife of Ambassador William Annenberg, the founder of the Annenberg Institute of Reform, which funded the Annenberg Challenge, which once had two famous board members: former “domestic terrorist” William Ayers and Sen. Barack Obama.

Why not apply the same standards you apply to Obama to McCain eh?

No, I did not only talk about Hagee. My points referenced both Hagee and Parsely(sp?).

In case I didn't make myself clear, I don't see how you can equate McCain's relationships with them and the Obama/Wright association.

Please describe the similarities you see in comparing the relationship between Obama and Wright and McCain's relationships with Hagee and Parsely.


BTW, you can drop the scare quotes from "domestic terrorist" William Ayers. Since he's a self-admitted terrorist who operated domestically, he fully qualifies for that description no matter how much you want to minimize that point.

[Bob Barr]

Originally Posted by Ferre

Are you stupid or what?