Presidential debate

[ferret77]

awall19

do you have cable internet?

you just throw a splitter into the cable that goes to your computer and get free cable that bleeds thru

I have cable for years that way

[Dark_Matter]

i thought kerry did ok, but when they asked him about calling bush a liar, he was like " well I never actually called him a liar, I just said he obscured the truth" (or something to that effect)......come on already!

[South]

Originally Posted by ferret77

"Kerry contradicted his own words at least twice which Bush missed"

just curious but when?

First by bashing Bush for going to war even though he couldn't assemble international popular support, then saying "I’ll never give a veto to any country over our security.”

Then by using the "I'm strong and steadfast and have never changed my mind" (paraphrased), while later making a reference to changing his mind when realizing it was a mistake. Again, that part is paraphrased badly, but that's the general content of the statements.

Kerry is in a corner of sorts. He wants to have it both ways. "Really, I'm not a weak anti-war liberal, but if you are a liberal with a vote, OK I'm anti-war.

[South]

Originally Posted by Dark_Matter

i thought kerry did ok, but when they asked him about calling bush a liar, he was like " well I never actually called him a liar, I just said he obscured the truth" (or something to that effect)......come on already!

He's made up for it today, his new ads actually use the word "liar".

[ferret77]

"First by bashing Bush for going to war even though he couldn't assemble international popular support, then saying "I’ll never give a veto to any country over our security.”"

I'm not really sure how getting international support is the same as giving a country a veto over our security

either way I was kind of under the impression that Iraqi wasn't really a threat and had no wmd or any ties to bin ladin

perhaps if will had perhaps if bush had based his decision on getting popular support we wouldn't be in the mess we are in now

Everyone was with us on going into Afghanistan, maybe not everyone being with us could have been a sign that it wasn't such a good idea

It is pretty obvious that case for going to war with iraqi was grossly manipulated

[awall19]

Bush can't corner people. he has to stick to the script or he might sound foolish. did you see him on Meet the Press?
http://www.americanprogress.org/site...RJ8OVF&b=28200

Originally Posted by ferret77

"First by bashing Bush for going to war even though he couldn't assemble international popular support, then saying "I’ll never give a veto to any country over our security.”"

I'm not really sure how getting international support is the same as giving a country a veto over our security

reductionism is a technique used to manipulate people. people who say its this way or that way are:
-trying to manipulate others -or-
-incapable of higher level thinking

the primary driver in the world is economics (no real secret there). as the richest country in the world we can afford to investigate stuff and / or buy off other countries.

the intent was to be pigheaded and steadfast and b/s... the goal was to get that oil at any cost. you can describe the Iraq war using other terms, it just would be a description that lacks honesty and / or clarity.

[South]

Originally Posted by ferret77

"First by bashing Bush for going to war even though he couldn't assemble international popular support, then saying "I’ll never give a veto to any country over our security.”"

I'm not really sure how getting international support is the same as giving a country a veto over our security

Because that was the context he was using it in. His critisism of Bush was that we shouldn't have gone to war unless we got more support. So he's saying unless we can get others to support the war, then it's the wrong thing to do.

This is relying on the rest of the world to decide what is right for us.

He tries to difuse that with any potential voter it might not have settled well with by saying "I’ll never give a veto to any country over our security.” It's double talk with fine print, very Demlike and Clintonesque. No, he may not decide based on some official UN veto, but he's already clearly stated that international support should be a deciding factor in war. That in itself is veto power. A war could be stopped by outside countries by simply refusing support.

As for the war being with Bin Laden and not Iraq, I was really surprised to hear Kerry say that during a debate, another place Bush should have (but again didn't) taken him to task. That shows a very thin understanding on the war against terrorism.

[hatchet]

I could never vote for someone that talks about the current president only creating low paying jobs but won't look upon a very large corporation (Heinz) that have most of their products manufactured in Canada or Mexico or Asia, etc..
A low paying job is much better than no jobs or jobs in other countries.
32 factories in Europe and 18 in Asia and the Pacific.. they also have 27 other factories in North America - most in Canada and Mexico. If Kerry is elected do you think they are going to all of the sudden move these factories to the US to create more jobs? Doubt it.
That's all I have to say about that.

[Spiral]

Originally Posted by southnow

He tries to difuse that with any potential voter it might not have settled well with by saying "I’ll never give a veto to any country over our security.” It's double talk with fine print, very Demlike and Clintonesque. No, he may not decide based on some official UN veto, but he's already clearly stated that international support should be a deciding factor in war. That in itself is veto power. A war could be stopped by outside countries by simply refusing support.

As for the war being with Bin Laden and not Iraq, I was really surprised to hear Kerry say that during a debate, another place Bush should have (but again didn't) taken him to task. That shows a very thin understanding on the war against terrorism.

Kerrys line about the veto was a subtle dig at Bush for taking the country to a war with Iraq. Iraq was not a threat to security, so Kerry makes perfect sense.

As for not understanding the war on terror, I'm just going to forget that I read that. I love the republican noise machine. They have managed to indoctrinate so many seemingly normal people.

He's so far out of the mainstream!

[awall19]

Originally Posted by hatchet

I could never vote for someone that talks about the current president only creating low paying jobs but won't look upon a very large corporation (Heinz) that have most of their products manufactured in Canada or Mexico or Asia, etc..
A low paying job is much better than no jobs or jobs in other countries.
32 factories in Europe and 18 in Asia and the Pacific.. they also have 27 other factories in North America - most in Canada and Mexico. If Kerry is elected do you think they are going to all of the sudden move these factories to the US to create more jobs? Doubt it.
That's all I have to say about that.

you can look at any micro detail and extract "meaningful" data, but its more the macroscopic effect that is important.

debt spending = kill off social programs. erode economic stability of the country. <--- this is a common underlying critisism for left leaning or nurturant parent model behaviour...and yet for some reason the "conservative" right wing is doing it now? "In self-sacrifice, the government spends too much, gets deep in debt, and cannot help people very much any more." <--- odd that is there mr president

increased cost of college (over 10% nationwide the year of the first Bush tax cut) = less opportunity for everybody

help drug companies rape the economy = overpriced monopolies are bad for everybody. something these free market warriers do not get...spewing garbage like saying that Al Queda may want to strike illegally imported drugs <--- that is using fear to lie and manipulate people for personal financial gain...one of the scummiest and most transparent political moves I have read about in a great deal of time.

leadership through fear = frightens people and takes their focus off their hopes and dreams...they become less creative...the only hope this country have is that it is more inovative than others...and that fear stuff does not bring out the best in people.

stealing from social security <--- disgusting

[chane]

Originally Posted by ferret77

I don't think Giuliani is used to having people dispute him like that, they probably won't allow anymore visible republicans on the show

most politicians won't go on shows were they are actually questioned , that's why news is often so wack

you might have noticed that buch and cheney stick with fox news for interviews mostly.

And you will also notice that democrats RARELY appear on the O'Reilly Factor.

What would we do with out Fox News? I heard there is another all-news channel out there but, that channel just does not get even close to the viewers Fox News gets.

[chane]

Originally Posted by awall19

you can look at any micro detail and extract "meaningful" data, but its more the macroscopic effect that is important.

debt spending = kill off social programs. erode economic stability of the country. <--- this is a common underlying critisism for left leaning or nurturant parent model behaviour...and yet for some reason the "conservative" right wing is doing it now? "In self-sacrifice, the government spends too much, gets deep in debt, and cannot help people very much any more." <--- odd that is there mr president

increased cost of college (over 10% nationwide the year of the first Bush tax cut) = less opportunity for everybody

help drug companies rape the economy = overpriced monopolies are bad for everybody. something these free market warriers do not get...spewing garbage like saying that Al Queda may want to strike illegally imported drugs <--- that is using fear to lie and manipulate people for personal financial gain...one of the scummiest and most transparent political moves I have read about in a great deal of time.

leadership through fear = frightens people and takes their focus off their hopes and dreams...they become less creative...the only hope this country have is that it is more inovative than others...and that fear stuff does not bring out the best in people.

stealing from social security <--- disgusting

Is there anything positive you can say about President Bush or his administration?

[awall19]

Originally Posted by chane

Is there anything positive you can say about President Bush or his administration?

few presidents have ever looked out for the rich at the expense of the whole as well as Bush has. if I were rich, selfish, and nearsided I would think he is doing a good job.

did you see the convention recap yet?
http://home.earthlink.net/~houval/gopconstrm.mov

[hatchet]

The bottom line is that no matter who you're talking about in politics - they're all f***in liars. Select the one that makes you the least nauseous. To me I can more readily sleep with choosing someone that doesn't have a direct stake in large business, someone that isn't going to think "Will this effect my wife's corporation?".
Honestly - if Bush wasn't there I would vote Nader.
I hate these damn political debates... we all have a stake in it at some level and typically that stake doesn't align with the neighbors - but that's alright. You make your choice and you live with it... you make the one that you can live with and nobody can fault you for that.

[chane]

Originally Posted by awall19

few presidents have ever looked out for the rich at the expense of the whole as well as Bush has. if I were rich, selfish, and nearsided I would think he is doing a good job.

did you see the convention recap yet?
http://home.earthlink.net/~houval/gopconstrm.mov

No, I would like to but, thats a mac os file. I'm running Windows. Is there a link to view it in windows media player?

By the way, I think it's time for a change of leadership too. I don't hate Bush. I think he did alright, but a lot of what you say has some truth to it. He also reversed a few of Clinton's great environmental laws so that his wealthy friends can destroy the air we breathe just a little bit faster.

[chane]

Originally Posted by hatchet

The bottom line is that no matter who you're talking about in politics - they're all f***in liars. Select the one that makes you the least nauseous. To me I can more readily sleep with choosing someone that doesn't have a direct stake in large business, someone that isn't going to think "Will this effect my wife's corporation?"

I agree with your first two sentences and the second made me laugh...unfortunately what you say is true.

But, who are you referring to as a direct stake in large business?

Bush & the Texas Ranger's, oil companies and whatever else.

Or Kerry & Heinz?

Oh yeah, and Nader running every 4 years - Is it a f***in joke or what? Because the first 4 years or so, um, I guess it was funny. Now it's not. It's just not funny anymore. He has no chance in hell. I wish he did, cause I'd probably vote for him too.

But, it's ridiculous and embarrassing to have a race like:

Bush 49%
Kerry 47%
Nader 2%

I mean, what the hell is that? How big of a loser do you have to be to know that each year you are going into the race as a joke? How can he keep a straight face when he is out campaigning? I would bust out laughing.

It's like I am just waiting for him to tell us he was just kidding...it's all a big joke right?

[docquesting]

Originally Posted by hatchet

I could never vote for someone that talks about the current president only creating low paying jobs but won't look upon a very large corporation (Heinz) that have most of their products manufactured in Canada or Mexico or Asia, etc..
A low paying job is much better than no jobs or jobs in other countries.
32 factories in Europe and 18 in Asia and the Pacific.. they also have 27 other factories in North America - most in Canada and Mexico. If Kerry is elected do you think they are going to all of the sudden move these factories to the US to create more jobs? Doubt it.
That's all I have to say about that.

I agrea. Also the Reason Bush may have looked peeved on the debate and not doing such a good job was this. He was out in 100 degree weather helping folks while Kerry well......... Prepared to not call him a liar?
http://www.annointed.net/modules.php...rticle&sid=691

[hatchet]

Yeah it is, or was, pretty funny about Nader - give it up. I was referring to the direct correlation of owning a large corporation - not being influenced by large corporations. What better influence though than actually seeing direct profits from it