Creationism taught in school? - Page 5

evilregis · 11-07-2004, 08:52 PM

Science hasn't even proven the tiniest shred of evidence of a God. I'm not sure what you are talking about, doc. Do you have any links or references as to what you are referring to?

And why should people who don't believe in God or more specifically YOUR God be forced to acknowledge him? If I'm a Buddhist, why should I say the Lord's prayer in school? What would you do if they made schools start reciting Islamic prayers in school? Would you pray to Allah? Doubtful, so why would someone pray to a God that is not theirs. And to suggest that the devil is behind every other religion but yours is abhorrent.

gorillaboy · 11-07-2004, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Do you have any links or references as to what you are referring to?

Does he ever?

**John Scott** · 11-07-2004, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by evilregis

Science hasn't even proven the tiniest shred of evidence of a God. I'm not sure what you are talking about, doc. Do you have any links or references as to what you are referring to?

And why should people who don't believe in God or more specifically YOUR God be forced to acknowledge him? If I'm a Buddhist, why should I say the Lord's prayer in school? What would you do if they made schools start reciting Islamic prayers in school? Would you pray to Allah? Doubtful, so why would someone pray to a God that is not theirs. And to suggest that the devil is behind every other religion but yours is abhorrent.

Who said that you should be forced to say the Lord's Prayer?

Rivux · 11-07-2004, 08:55 PM

Testify doc, testify....It seems that I need to get more in touch with Him, since being close means you get to make wild and unsupportive claims then pray for everyones souls when they don't agree with you. I hear the money is pretty good too, maybe I should open my own church.

Rivux · 11-07-2004, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnScott

Who said that you should be forced to say the Lord's Prayer?

I believe he was using it as an example for why the church should not be involved in the public school system. Oh ya I almost forgot, examples and facts are looked down upon around here. My bad.

**John Scott** · 11-07-2004, 09:01 PM

Rivux, that's your last sarcastic post in this thread. If you cannot debate the matter in an mature manner, refrain from posting. Thanks.

Atom · 11-07-2004, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by littleFella

My post #66 said something to that effect, didn't it?

Yeah I think so. I'm seriously going to have to study that post further, it spurs the old brain pretty well that one... gotta sort my thoughts and come to a conclusion or two.

evilregis · 11-07-2004, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnScott

Who said that you should be forced to say the Lord's Prayer?

Nobody forces you to say anything, but you are forced to hear it. Time is taken out of your day for it whether it's your religion or not.

When in high school (a public school, not separate) they would say a prayer every morning over the P.A. system. One of my best friends in high school was a Buddhist. She had to sit there every day and listen to a Catholic prayer, never to hear one of hers. There was a considerable Arabic population at the school that certainly never heard any mention of their religion either.

If you are going to include God in a public school, then it should not be one single God that is recognized.

And I can only imagine the uproar that would ensue if they were to make an attempt at reciting Islamic prayers or passages from the Koran, or any other religion.

Therefore, if you will not recognize other religions then none should be. It is not fair for those who are not of that same faith.

Anyone stands up and says that they don't want their child being forced to say "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance or the Lord's Prayer there are cries of blasphemy and that it's their right to say their prayers in school. Suggest another religion be allowed the same right and those same people are up in arms again calling blasphemy.

docquesting · 11-07-2004, 09:05 PM

Not to offend you and your relegious beliefs. But there is only ONE GOD.

As to other that would lead to more debating which I dont have time for as its bed time.

Maybe think on this one. Why do you pray to anything at all if there is no (God) or gods as you say. If there were not a gods there would not be a reason for differant religions that we have including yours and a need to pray to something. Make a note on the capital G and lower case g.

I wish I had time to post this more clearly but hopefully what I did say here will make you think. Also I mean no disrespect to the way you beleive and your relegion.

**John Scott** · 11-07-2004, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Nobody forces you to say anything, but you are forced to hear it. Time is taken out of your day for it whether it's your religion or not.

Does it offend you to hear a Christian praying? Or a Buddhist? Should we make public prayer illegal?

dave conz · 11-07-2004, 09:06 PM

Sorry I don't have time to answer all the questions I think were directed at me, but here's some quick responses:

Stephen - Yes, I have had a strong interest in space since I first saw a picture of Captain Kirk on an alien planet 30 years ago.

Bassman:
"Why does it seem confusing that a creator would use natural sciences to do his creating?"
I have no problem with that idea. I think I wasn't quite clear about my use of the word "creationism". Which brings me to....

littlefella:

"You assume that creationism inevitably leads to the Biblical creationism. This narrows the dispute to Christianity."
Yes, I should have been clear that I was using the term "creationism" as it is usually used in my community; that is, the literal interpretation of the Bible. I had meant to clarify that, but in my haste I overlooked it.

"The age of the universe (proven or not) does not require creationism to be wrong."
Unless we're talking about literal interpretation of the Bible, which I was.

"There are lines of thoughts based on scientific methods leading to creationism as the only plausible explanation of the Beginning of the Universe."
And as I said, I am inclined to agree with them. The reason I believe the Universe was not a fluke is because I believe that's the conclusion scientific methodology leads us to.

"You put creationism and science opposite each other and judge both on the basis that if one is right then the other must be wrong."
If you're talking about the 7-day version of creationism, then that's right. Otherwise, science has no problem in accepting a Creator.

"You assume that for God to exist he must be good."
No I don't.

"By saying “I believe science can demonstrate that the chances of an accidental Universe are infinitely small” you demonstrate just another belief, not a scientific fact."
That's right, and it's why I am careful to say "I believe" or "IMO" when I am dealing with something which is not an indisputable scientific fact. Science is not all black and white. My interpretation of the evidence is that there is effectively no chance that the Universe was born by accident. If I could prove this beyond doubt then I wouldn't be posting it at V7N, I'd be reporting it in Nature.

"The science of Christmas pudding (or any pudding for that matter) is actually pretty damn valid science; lots of chemistry going on there"
No argument from me, but of course I never said that pudding isn't science, I implied that creationism isn't pudding. In any case, Christmas pudding rocks. I trust we can all agree on this point

"if the Universe did have a beginning, then there was a time when it didn't exist."
According to conventional science this is not true. Time is an integral part of this Universe, just like the other three dimensions (hence the term "spacetime"). Asking what happened before the Universe was created is like asking where a road went before it was made.

I'd love to stay involved in this thread but I need to bow out. Got a trip away to plan. Have fun kids, this is a good thread

Atom · 11-07-2004, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by evilregis

Nobody forces you to say anything, but you are forced to hear it. Time is taken out of your day for it whether it's your religion or not.

When in high school (a public school, not separate) they would say a prayer every morning over the P.A. system. One of my best friends in high school was a Buddhist. She had to sit there every day and listen to a Catholic prayer, never to hear one of hers. There was a considerable Arabic population at the school that certainly never heard any mention of their religion either.

If you are going to include God in a public school, then it should not be one single God that is recognized.

And I can only imagine the uproar that would ensue if they were to make an attempt at reciting Islamic prayers or passages from the Koran, or any other religion.

Therefore, if you will not recognize other religions then none should be. It is not fair for those who are not of that same faith.

Anyone stands up and says that they don't want their child being forced to say "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance or the Lord's Prayer there are cries of blasphemy and that it's their right to say their prayers in school. Suggest another religion be allowed the same right and those same people are up in arms again calling blasphemy.

Wasn't by any chance a Christian school, was it? Prayer over the PA would make me think so but I just wanted to hear from you.

**John Scott** · 11-07-2004, 09:11 PM

I've never heard of a public school saying Cathlic prayers over the PA. Which school district was this? Where?

evilregis · 11-07-2004, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnScott

Does it offend you to hear a Christian praying? Or a Buddhist? Should we make public prayer illegal?

I am not offended by anyone praying. But should someone who is Buddhist not be allowed the same recognition of religion that Christians get in North America?

And people can pray whenever/wherever they want. The point is, in school, you are there to learn. Not pray. If you want to pray on your own time that is fine, the entire school isn't forced to hear it. If that is what they want, then wouldn't you agree that a 2 minute silence is observed at the start of each day for each person to say their own prayer to their own God would be a more fair option to those who aren't Christian?

evilregis · 11-07-2004, 09:12 PM

John McGregor Secondary School in Chatham, Ontario. Every single morning was the Lord's Prayer or some sort of prayer/passage.

Rivux · 11-07-2004, 09:15 PM

[quote=docquesting]Not to offend you and your relegious beliefs. But there is only ONE GOD.[quote]

Is this a fact or your personal belief? Because if its a fact, I must have missed the studies, the essays, the news stories that said there is only 1 God. Could you point me to something (other then your bible) that has collaborated your statement? And I bet the billions of people who do not believe in the same God as you do are really going to be bummed out when they read this thread.

John: Hope that wasn't too much sarcasm for you, if it is, I will take out the sarcastic parts and replace them with pictures of 8 month old aborted fetuses, those seem to be ok around here.

docquesting · 11-07-2004, 09:18 PM

I could answer all this with this country was founded on God. But I better leave well enough alone b/c it would just start another relegious fight. I dont really feal like it. Wouldnt do much good anyways since we each have our own thoughts on things.

Why dont we get back to what this thread was about.

P.s Rivvux its a fact.

Rivux · 11-07-2004, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnScott

I've never heard of a public school saying Cathlic prayers over the PA. Which school district was this? Where?

In all of the public schools that I went to 3 in total they all played morning prayers over the PA. You had the choice to go into the hall and not listen to it (well you sitll could but it was their way of getting out of the situation). I grew up in southwestern and central Ontario.

littleFella · 11-07-2004, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnScott

Who said that you should be forced to say the Lord's Prayer?

I think that's what teaching one particular religion in public schools would boil down too.

For the record, I am sending my daughter to a Catholic school by choice, and bacause I was brought up as a Catholic (I know docquest, all Catholics go to hell, and I heard Lutherans too

).
But I would be the first to protest compulsory religion calsses in public schools, unless these would be classes teaching about all major religions and spiritual movements.