Justifications for War

[Pretend]

Originally Posted by Atom

I'm not convinced that science can't find a way out of this, but what bothers me is if it would be in time.

You know what's really sad to me? Me having given up on any hope of a diplomatic solution.

About the only thing I can really see science finding a solution for would be power. I can see it MAYBE being possible to prevent the pole reverse or whatever exactly it is that happens, and making electronics work afterwards, but that's about it.

As far as diplomatic solutions, yeah, they're pretty much not going to happen apparently.

Damn, just lost my train of thought when I glanced at the TV...

[Michael Allison]

The scary thing is that we've over-extended our armed forces. The back-door draft of the national guard and the reserves has left us without the proper forces to deal with national disasters, like hurricanes and earthquakes.

As much as that sucks, we are terribly vulnerable, both militarily and economically. If China attacks Taiwan, what will we fight the Chinese with? Taiwan would be overrun and we would be helpless. If we did mount a half-hearted defense, we would get our asses handed to us and the Chinese would call in their markers and crash the dollar. All that could happen in the space of a few days.

The war was folly of the worst kind and we will be lucky to extricate ourselves without paying a very stiff price.

The ironic thing is that this is all happening under the banner of conservatism. There is nothing conservative about this Wild West diplomacy, nothing at all.

-Michael

[Atom]

Folks, our country is in peril

Jan. 6, 2006




Instead of making you dumber by reading more things our "President" has said publicly, let's chat for a minute about some things that run in stealth mode on most Americans' radar screens.

In a society where it's become taboo to talk about real issues that might actually involve truth and/or reality or help you or your family, we've instead been coerced down a path of groveling and raving lunacy! Just turn on government mouthpieces like the Fox "News" Channel or Rush Limbaugh for proof of the ensuing madness (then quickly turn them off).

When the PNAC crowd wasn't busy engineering 9/11, they were laying out what they would do afterwards. After all, you can't go around breaking up America and the rest of the world without proper justification. You need planes crashing into buildings and massive explosions, imploding skyscrapers, fire, smoke, mass panic, thousands dead, and most importantly: FEAR beamed directly into everyone's brains via live network satellite feed. That's what you need. Justification. Fear of a hidden enemy, supposedly controlling all the destruction from a cave somewhere, that somehow got past our trillion dollar defense system catching everyone off guard. Suuuure. Sounds like a good B movie or even an after school special starring Nicolas Cage. It made quite an impact though, didn't it? Sure did. Didn't the Cars have a song "You're Just What I Needed"?

Then Congress passes the PATRIOT Act without even reading it, and not too far off we have the Homeland Security Act and subsequently the biggest reorganization and expansion of the US government in hundreds of years. Thanks a lot guys. And to think the Bush family got their start financing Hitler. Who would've guessed? But never mind all that, now it's time for war.

Folks, our country is in peril. The American Republic (democracy was a word our Founders despised by the way) is in sharp decline if you haven't noticed. Maybe you all could just stop chewing sand for a moment, breathe some polluted air, and take a look around!

The Constitution has been shredded, along with our rights, liberty, privacy, and freedoms. Inflation's skyrocketing because of reckless spending. Our jobs are being outsourced faster than the Chinese can pump out American flags and it's like we've barely noticed. Hello? NAFTA...GATT? And now CAFTA and soon to be FTAA.

These are all death sentences for American prosperity, the way of life we currently enjoy, and our sovereignty as a nation. We have a worthless fiat dollar and an economy collapsing faster than the auto industry can file bankruptcy, and the mass media tries to convince us it's all good by vilifying anyone who still thinks for themselves. Is this even real? War is peace, torture is good, lie is truth, free speech is bad, black is white, day is night. The contradictions are everywhere and I'm sick of it!

Everyone scoffed at the anti-war crowd in the beginning and they were hastily labeled unpatriotic traitors. Now they've been vindicated and the administration is falling apart because of its blatant lies and utter disrespect of the American people. They sent our kids into a madhouse of concocted chaos without proper gear or equipment and gave them depleted uranium rounds to shoot around at each other. Not to mention all the deadly vaccines they pumped into them.

Supporting our troops doesn't mean slapping a magnetic "Support Our Troops" made in China bow tie on your SUV. Supporting our troops means getting them out of this mess ASAP and holding the criminals in Washington responsible for the lies and propaganda they dreamed up, and the crimes they committed to justify their sick means.

Those that have needlessly died over there thought they died for freedom. Is it freedom when our government locks dissenters up in "free speech zones" if they want to protest here in America? Is it freedom to secretly drag you off and torture you just because you're "suspected" of a crime? Is it freedom when fascist corporations buy politicians to legislate your job to India or Indonesia for higher profits? Is it freedom when our election votes are counted by electronic voting machines, that offer no paper trail, and have been proven easily hackable and manipulated? Is it freedom when the NSA secretly taps your phone because Echelon picked up your Google search once for "federal reserve edward griffin"? Is it freedom when our government uses terror to scare the US public into submission?

No that's not freedom and we owe these soldiers our respect. We owe them to arrest, prosecute, and imprison the cabal that has hijacked our country and sent them there to die in the first place. Anything else would be disrespect.

America used to be a model for freedom, and what hard-working people who wanted a better life can accomplish free of tyranny. Not anymore. Now we're laughed at around the world and hated because we've just stood by blindly as our "leaders" steal elections, legislate away our rights, and blow our ridiculous "defense" budget on killing innocent people in random countries we deem valuable. All in the guise of fighting a "war on terrorism" and "spreading democracy," when in reality it's a war on freedom and nothing else. All justified by 9/11, which was a fraud in the first place. What a total disgusting joke we all have become. We are better than this.

Contrary to what some puppet talking head in flight gear might say from the deck of an aircraft carrier, the mission isn't accomplished. Not by a long shot. It won't be accomplished until we clean house in this country. This has gone on long enough and we need to push the reset button. Just look at the incompetence in the wake of Katrina. The corruption in government is so beyond rotting and rancid and we'd all better wake up and realize just what has been done in our names. Otherwise our names will be done.



© by the author.

by C.R., Unknown News

http://www.unknownnews.org/060106a-cr.html

[hyperspace]

Somehow when 9/11 happened, I just knew Oliver Stone was involved somehow.

[hyperspace]

For those about to debate, we salute you.

Highly reccommend you read the 9/11 Commission Report.

If you want a conspiracy, check out the simple, unmuddied, conspiracy known as Stoopidity. According to the Report, Pakistan national Khalid Sheik Mohammed masterminded and carried out the 9/11 attacks. He was apprehended long ago by Mr. Bush and is in a cell in Gitmo providing good enemy war intel.

Osama was the money man. He paid for the attacks and provided support. If Mr Bush was smart, he would have declared "Mission accomplished" when the US caught Mohammed.

There is a lot more crucial info in the report. Do yourself a favour and check it out. Most members of the media cite it, but if you have read it yourself, you will quickly notice they haven't read what they're citing.

Apologies for the long post.

[rwoman]

I like this piece by former President Carter about what is a just war:

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0309-02.htm

I think it equally applies to foreign and domestic wars.

[John Scott]

Originally Posted by rwoman

I like this piece by former President Carter about what is a just war:

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0309-02.htm

I think it equally applies to foreign and domestic wars.

Let's not forget that Carter was one f the most worthless presidents we ever had.

Profound changes have been taking place in American foreign policy, reversing consistent bipartisan commitments that for more than two centuries have earned our nation greatness. These commitments have been predicated on basic religious principles, respect for international law, and alliances that resulted in wise decisions and mutual restraint.

Two centuries? Or perhaps Jimmy just pulled these out of his arse?

The war can be waged only as a last resort, with all nonviolent options exhausted.

Who's to say we exhausted all options? With Germany in WW2 we could have blockaded them for ten years, but we didn't.

The war's weapons must discriminate between combatants and noncombatants.

Yes, the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were very precise and no civilian casualties were recorded.

Its violence must be proportional to the injury we have suffered.

Well of course. We only carpet bombed Japanese cities after the Japanese did the same to LA, NY and Chicago.

Looks like Jimmy been pulling rules out of his arse again.

[KeithCash]

Originally Posted by John Scott

The Civil War was largely about liberating slaves. Lincoln knew that a liberation proclamation would result in the secession of Southern states whose economy depended on slavery, but he also knew that slavery was wrong.

The Civil War was not largely about liberating slaves, it was about taxes, and controlling the souths economy. Slavery was only a small part of the Civil War. We did not want taxation with a some looking out for us.

BTW half the dead of CW was from disease and illness, not bullets or bayonets.

The yanks still treat us like the reheaded step child.

Yes Europe and UK stopped slavery, they kept the kind of salves of owing money to lords, and you could not leave until you paid it back, I cannot remember but at one time the children were bonded to the money, and they were slaves until they paid the money back.

For some reason slavery still happen today with human female trafficing.

We lost because the south had no industry.

Alway remember, never forget

Cheers

[South]

Originally Posted by KeithCash

The Civil War was not largely about liberating slaves, it was about taxes, and controlling the souths economy. Slavery was only a small part of the Civil War. We did not want taxation with a some looking out for us.

BTW half the dead of CW was from disease and illness, not bullets or bayonets.

The yanks still treat us like the reheaded step child.

Yes Europe and UK stopped slavery, they kept the kind of salves of owing money to lords, and you could not leave until you paid it back, I cannot remember but at one time the children were bonded to the money, and they were slaves until they paid the money back.

For some reason slavery still happen today with human female trafficing.

We lost because the south had no industry.

Alway remember, never forget

Cheers

Good to have another level headed southerner on board who actually thinks about history before believing every book thrown at him.

Lincoln knew that a liberation proclamation would result in the secession of Southern states

No such proclamation existed til two years after secession.

[KeithCash]

Originally Posted by South

Good to have another level headed southerner on board who actually thinks about history before believing every book thrown at him.



No such proclamation existed til two years after secession.

Good Info Brother. CSA/USA

Cheers

[backgammonnn123]

Civil war was definately not fought to free the slaves. The war was fought over economics and to save the union. The south was becoming too strong of a force and would have probably broken away from the north sooner or later. Even lincoln himself said if it were up to him he would have sent the slaves back to africa. Why are we teaching the former to kids still.

[John Scott]

Civil war was definately not fought to free the slaves.

I think folks who deny that slavery was a major issue should read the works of Thomas Paine and others. From the very beginning of the Union, there was a very vocal, very committed movement that opposed slavery.

Wikipedia even states:

Antislavery movements in the North gained momentum in the 1830s and 1840s

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins...ican_Civil_War

If you read the history, you will see many very personal choices of action, motivated by a very real conviction that slavery was wrong and needed to be ended.

Of course, the South likes to downplay this. Slavery? It wasn't an issue. And in case you were wondering, Slaves were fed caviar and wine, and slept on silk sheets.

[South]

Originally Posted by John Scott

I think folks who deny that slavery was a major issue should read the works of Thomas Paine and others. From the very beginning of the Union, there was a very vocal, very committed movement that opposed slavery.

Wikipedia even states:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins...ican_Civil_War

If you read the history, you will see many very personal choices of action, motivated by a very real conviction that slavery was wrong and needed to be ended.

Of course, the South likes to downplay this. Slavery? It wasn't an issue. And in case you were wondering, Slaves were fed caviar and wine, and slept on silk sheets.

John, nobody is saying that slavery wasn't a major social divider. It had been a divider since it's inception as it is in every society where slavery has existed or still exists today. However....the war itself wasn't about the preservation or dissolution of slavery. It couldn't have been. It may have made some people happier to fight the war...but it wasn't the cause. Dissolution of slavery may have been the one positive outcome of the war....but it wasn't the reason for it's start.

Here's a point of interest for you...I wouldn't care if it was. I spent the first 16 years of my life thinking that it was. Only when I developed a love of history and started studying for myself did I learn conclusively otherwise. The reason for the start of the war didn't alter my southern allegiance at all, because my devotion was never based on slavery or anything to do with it. If the war had been started entirely and exclusively to maintain slavery I would have no problem at all accepting that...like I said, I did accept it until I learned otherwise.

I know I've said this here before....but really hear it this time. The law was set up very clearly. The only way to ensure the continuation of slavery uninterrupted in America was to stay in the union.

"No amendment shall be made to the Constitution which will authorize or give to Congress the power to abolish or interfere, within any State, with the domestic institutions thereof, including that of persons held to labor or service by the laws of said State."

That passed 24 to 12. It was law. There was no way to change it without a 2/3 majority which could never have even come close to happening with Southern representatives in place. So you're saying that the southern states, in order to preserve slavery, did the only thing that could possibly take it away?

And you're saying that Lincoln wanted to take it away? No arguing he was an abolitionist, but without secession he couldn't take it away. If he planned on it then he was a liar. He said of the above that he had ""...no objection to its being made express and irrevocable".

He also said "My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that."

His head general Grant "If I thought this war was to abolish slavery, I would resign my commission and offer my sword to the other side."

So, everyone agrees that there was plenty of social squabbling over whether or not slavery should have existed in America, but to assume that it was the reason for the war is to deny historical documentation of laws that protected it only with an intact union, and you have to disagree with the very yankees who were waging the war.

You should read this.

http://www.amazon.com/South-Right-Ja...8746909&sr=8-1

I promise, if you read it with an open mind, you'll have a changed mind. They give historical footnotes and references for every claim made that you can easily reference for accuracy and context. Feel free to tear it apart...I did. Unless you're determined to believe only what you want to believe, this will be a serious eye opener.