The Pope Vs. Islam

[jg_v7n]

Originally Posted by South

Those weren't questions. They were baiting. If I'm wrong I apologize and will answer as best I can.

Call it baiting if you like, I won't deny that. Still questions though, but also - rightly or wrongly - my belief.

Its true what you say though, its my lack of understanding, though I genuinly would love to understand, I find it impossible and I've never heard a convincing answer, so please feel free to have a go...

[Ferre]

Originally Posted by Mia

He did have the help of most of eastern Europe as well. Several countries come to mind.

After he was voted in by the German population which was mostly Christian, he portraited himself as a catolic raised christian, which he actually was and that was one of the main reasons he had that much support to get into parliament...the rest is history.

Both Mussolini and Hitler were openly supported by 'Rome' btw, even when the war was going on for a couple of years already, Rome didn't 'back out' untill it was clear that the nazis were loosing. Look it up in google if you don't believe this.

[South]

Originally Posted by jg_v7n

My thought is; why follow a particular doctrine anyway? If you believe in God, why not find your own way to do what you believe he wants you to do? Why do you need a church to instuct you in how to live your life?

Maybe I don't understand this question. In proper language people are the church, with or without a meeting place. Christ's teachings are the doctrine. That's what makes you a Christian...following that doctrine. Therefore those who follow the teachings of Christ are the Christian church.

Is it in fact because in reality God does not talk to you, you just wish that he did? And so you follow the teaching of a church in order that you may feel a connection where in fact - look deep into your heart - there is none?

If you're a clear thinking person you follow what you find to be truth. The teaching of the "church" is the same book available to everyone, even commited Christians who never commune in a building with others. If you look in your heart and find no truth, yet still choose to follow it you're a fool.

[G10]

The only problem with most churches are that they don't follow Christ.

Bit of a bold statement I know, but then again a lot of churches, faith's etc, get mixed up within the political system when they definately should not as didn't Christ himself say that "my kingdom is no part of this world"? I could carry on.

A lot of religions have proven themselves false by getting mixed into the political system and breaking most laws stated by the bible.

I can understand why people hold such a dislike towards certain faiths.

[Ferre]

Originally Posted by South

You have a sore lack of understanding of the Christian faith.

No, you make a mistake, I do not have a sore lack of understanding of the Christian faith, I do have a sore lack of being blinded by devotion for that faith yes and a very good understanding of the Christian faith on their actions in history.

I think I have a better understanding of spirituality than most christians do, with all respect, I am a religious leader in my own shamanic belief system, which is, btw, a lot older than Christianity. The mere fact that I do not belief in the christian doctrines does not at all implicate that I would not understand what it, or they, are about. I just don't live in the Christian comfort zone and look at it as an outsider, non biased and factual without, as I said, being blinded by devotion. And factual and historically, I understand Christianity very well.

[jg_v7n]

Ok, so its the destinction between "The Church" and Christinanity. When I refer to the Church I refer to the political body that forms the ruling structure of the Christian church, and not just "the people" or "the followers".

The Pope and The Vatican set out rules and suggestions for the correct "lifestyle" of a Catholic for example. I don't see how this is part of being a "beliver" in God unless these instructions came straight from the God himself. In which case why doesn't God just instruct all his followers at the same time directly, why does he need to relay it through an elected official?

[G10]

Popes have just been a front man for Christianity and don't actually follow the teachings of the bible.

If they did, would things like the Inquisition have happened?

Could they not have spoke up during the wars, esp ww2 and stated that the bible said that one must love his brother as this is the most important commandment of all and helped prevent so many deaths?

Shall I carry on.

My argument is that if one preaches to others to live by the book, then they should set the example and do the same. - Actions speak louder than words.

[Atom]

Originally Posted by jg_v7n

Well, Christians argue that you should live by the word of God and Muslims argue that you should live by the word of Allah.

When of course in the real world the sensible thing to do is to live by your own standards.

Arguing between religions, seems futile and pointless, like arguing about the answer to two plus two. It is of course four, but neither religion seems to have noticed; they seem hell bent on destroying each other in order that their own "answer" be it five or six or something else be taken as correct.

Ahh yes but the plus to me means times.

[jg_v7n]

Originally Posted by Atom

Ahh yes but the plus to me means times.

Should we move this thread to the Maths forum??

[Ferre]

Originally Posted by G10

Popes have just been a front man for Christianity and don't actually follow the teachings of the bible.

Frontman for Christianity - does not follow the teachings of the bible

Frontman for millions of Christians - do not follow the bible

Millions of christians follow the frontman - do not follow the bible

Millions of people support powermongering sociopaths because of being blinded by devotion for - not the bible.

I better stop here.

[G10]

Originally Posted by Ferre

Frontman for Christianity - does not follow the teachings of the bible

Frontman for millions of Christians - do not follow the bible

Millions of christians follow the frontman - do not follow the bible

Millions of people support powermongering sociopaths because of being blinded by devotion for - not the bible.

I better stop here.

Feel free to carry on dude.

You are just re-inforcing my point for me

The ones that I would say do follow the bible teachings are the ones that do not get mixed up in this systems politics and more.

[Mia]

Originally Posted by Ferre

After he was voted in by the German population which was mostly Christian, he portraited himself as a catolic raised christian, which he actually was and that was one of the main reasons he had that much support to get into parliament...the rest is history.

Both Mussolini and Hitler were openly supported by 'Rome' btw, even when the war was going on for a couple of years already, Rome didn't 'back out' untill it was clear that the nazis were loosing. Look it up in google if you don't believe this.

I'm not sure I follow you here. You blame Christianity and Catholics for Hitler? I wan't some of what you are smokin'

[jg_v7n]

Originally Posted by Mia

I'm not sure I follow you here. You blame Christianity and Catholics for Hitler? I wan't some of what you are smokin'

Having the support of influential religious groups is of major importance to any political leader. Hitler knew it in the same way that todays leaders do...

[G10]

Originally Posted by Mia

I'm not sure I follow you here. You blame Christianity and Catholics for Hitler? I wan't some of what you are smokin'

Mia, I think they are talking about the fact that Pope Pius XII signed a Concordat with Adolf Hitler - Not really a blame as such but he sure didn't help

[Mia]

Originally Posted by G10

Mia, I think they are talking about the fact that Pope Pius XII signed a Concordat with Adolf Hitler - Not really a blame as such but he sure didn't help

Sure, that I understand. It is no secret the Catholic Church looked the other way. But I hardly think lobbing all of Christianity inot Hitler's rise to power is warranted. There were so many more factors that attribuited to his rise to power, the list of which had anything to do with "Christians".

[South]

Originally Posted by Ferre

No, you make a mistake, I do not have a sore lack of understanding of the Christian faith, I do have a sore lack of being blinded by devotion for that faith yes and a very good understanding of the Christian faith on their actions in history..

Again with the "blinded" stuff. Do you realize that you accuse all that don't share your views of being "blinded"?

Yes, you have a poor understanding of the Christian faith.

I think I have a better understanding of spirituality than most christians do, with all respect, I am a religious leader in my own shamanic belief system

Being a religeous leader of a different faith helps you understand Christian spirituality better than Christians? And you understand the spiritual status of most Christians? Wow.

which is, btw, a lot older than Christianity.

Anything older than 2006 years is older than Christianity. I expect that includes some stick worshiping peoples.

The mere fact that I do not belief in the christian doctrines does not at all implicate that I would not understand what it, or they, are about.

The fact that you do not beleive in the Christian doctines means exactly that you don't understand what it is about.

I just don't live in the Christian comfort zone and look at it as an outsider, non biased and factual without, as I said, being blinded by devotion.

Christians live far away from a comfort zone. Christians understand that and they understand why.

And factual and historically, I understand Christianity very well.

Historically you understand what some men did, some men who did things contrary to the teachings of Christ yet claimed to do it in His name. You cannot grasp it beyond that because you consider the faith a negative thing.

Christ is the teacher of love and forgiveness. He encourages charity for the poor...even to the point of self denial. He preaches that men should be humble before others pointing out that He Himself came as a servant and told us that the only greatness comes from our humility and service of others. He encouraged us to give gifts to the poor rather than wealthy friends and to give to those we know cannot repay us. He teaches us to forgive those who have wronged us whether they want the forgiveness or not. He tells us to do all these things as privately as possible and expect no reward or recognition for it.

You read the Word so I know that you know these things. How can you relate the evil actions of a man to Christ regardless of what the men claim? His nature is very clear. Whether you beleive in Christianity or not, a simple read will identify those who follow the teachings. Again...if they are attempting to follow them they are Christians. If not..they're not. How hard is that?