The Pope Vs. Islam

[G10]

I know this thread is entitled The Pope Vs. Islam but I can't comment too heavily on Islam as my knowledge does not go too deep into this.

Biblical faiths and teachings, I am ok on so sorry if it seems like I am picking on Christianity guys.

[Ferre]

Originally Posted by Mia

I'm not sure I follow you here. You blame Christianity and Catholics for Hitler? I wan't some of what you are smokin'

Without the support from the German Christians he would never been voted into the government. What does that telll you?

Compare the situation with Bush today, he would not be president without the support from the Christians in America. What's so hard to understand about that?

Originally Posted by South

Again with the "blinded" stuff. Do you realize that you accuse all that don't share your views of being "blinded"?

You are wrong again, I do not claim that people who do not share my views are blinded, I do claim, and history shows this, that people, blinded by 'faith' follow the wrong leaders only because those leaders use religion as a tool.

You say so yourself that most so called Christians are not really following the teachings in the bible but follow teachings of leaders. I call that being blind, how would you call it?

The fact that you do not beleive in the Christian doctines means exactly that you don't understand what it is about.

Dude, you crack me up, you try to tell me that anyone who does understand and knows the bible automatically would be a believer?

[G10]

Originally Posted by Ferre

Without the support from the German Christians he would never been voted into the government. What does that telll you?

Compare the situation with Bush today, he would not be president without the support from the Christians in America. What's so hard to understand about that?

This is true.

[John Scott]

Originally Posted by jg_v7n

The Pope did not give offence yet his enemies took it.

Taking offence is a blackmail strategy and any excuse, real or imagined, will do: it is seen in the belligerent drunk, growling “What are you lookin’ at?” or the gang member who draws a knife because he has been “dissed”. It works because polite, educated respondents try to treat this as a real question, to apologise and negotiate.

You cannot negotiate with a drunk or a knife, and you cannot negotiate with those who manufacture offence as a weapon.

This reminds me of the scene from Me, Myself and Irene, where Jim Carrey asks the limo driver, who is Black (African American), Do you people take checks?

By "you people", he was of course referring to the limo company, but the hypersensitive limo driver goes off on a tangent.

Charlie Baileygates: Do you people take checks?
Limo Driver: Say that again. Do we people take checks? You mean a black man?
Charlie Baileygates: No, I mean your company.
Limo Driver: Don't give me that backtracking bullshit, that was a racist slur!

Women do the same thing. Hold a door open for a woman (I do that for men, too, it is common courtesy), and she may go off and call you a sexist and take the courtesy as an act that implies female inferiority.

I think it is all crap. People taking offense where none is present.

[G10]

Maybe you can pay us with fried chicken. You know how much us people LOVE fried chicken

That film was funny

[John Scott]

Originally Posted by Ferre

Btw, without the support from the Christians, Hitler would never been able to do what he did because he would not have gained the power to do it all.

That is such an ignorant statement. Hilter had the support of a lot of Germans, because of his ultra nationalism. He did not have the support of very many of his own country men in the murder of millions of Jews. If you study the history of the Second World War you will find that it was not public knowledge until almost the very end of the war that he was killing millions of Jewish people.

And, no, nowhere in the teachings of Christ will you find support for the actions of Hilter.

I am sure that some people professing to be Christian supported Hilter, and some people professing to be Christian opposed him.

Same with Bush. Every president claims to be Christian. Even Clinton claimed to be a Christian.

I might as well say that Christians are murderers, because several people convicted of murder arew Christian. Or, I could claim that all pot smokers are pedophiles because several convicted child rapists are self professed pot smokers. Do we really want to lower this discussion to the guilt-by-association level?

[Ferre]

Dude, all I say is that he would never have been voted in the German government without the votes from the Christian majority. That is a historical fact.

Of course they did not know how he would turn out AFTER he was voted into the government but that doesn't change the fact that he could not have been there without their support.

Hitler turned into a dictator AFTER he was elected. Before his electing he praised the "Christian morals" in every speech he made. This is a fact.

Would Bush be president without the support from the Christians in the USA? You know that answer. Today Bush does not have this huge amount of support from the Christians in the USA anymore but that does not change the fact that they voted him in.

[John Scott]

Of course they did not know how he would turn out AFTER he was voted into the government but that doesn't change the fact that he could not have been there without their support.

So what is your point? That Christians are gullible like everybody else?

[nigelaxis]

I just watched an interview about this with 'Inter-Faith'. Inter-Faith promotes harmony between religions. The representative was a Muslim. He stated that the problem was not the speach in itself as it was to provoke thought and was made to a room full of scholars. The problem arose that it was not a private speach and got taken to the markets of Pakistan where it was then taken out of context.

The truth is that through history, many religious struggles have ended in death. We have the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, Protestant v Catholic, Jihad's, etc. It's terrible as murder is contrary to the prime teachings of right and wrong taught in most religions. But unfortunely (like politics) power takes over.

I personally would remove myself from any person, minister of religion, or even religion that proposes violence. For Islam this is a problem with certain sections rather then the faith as a whole.

[Ferre]

Originally Posted by John Scott

So what is your point? That Christians are gullible like everybody else?

More gullible I'd say. They already are made gullible by believing fairy tales from their childhood without questioning, but that's just my opinion, and it is my good right to have that opinion.

[John Scott]

They already are made gullible by believing fairy tales from their childhood without questioning

I am Christain, and I do not believe anything without questioning, and I do not believe any fairy tales.

[G10]

In October 1941 Harold Tittman, a U.S. delegate to the Vatican, asked the pope to condemn the atrocities against Jews; Pius replied that the Vatican wished to remain "neutral,"

The Christian (Roman Catholic anyway) faith knew all about this and could have made this public knowledge but they remained neutral.

*edit*

Sorry, Link

[Ferre]

Originally Posted by John Scott

I am Christain, and I do not believe anything without questioning, and I do not believe any fairy tales.

Allright. Do you believe in Jesus? How can you be sure he even existed? There is no historical or geological prove whatsoever that he did. It "can" be true but it can not be true as well. you have to 'believe' it.

[nigelaxis]

Originally Posted by Ferre

They already are made gullible by believing fairy tales from their childhood without questioning

Fairy tales may even pre-date religion. Are saying that you should not tell stories to your kids?

[John Scott]

Originally Posted by G10

The Christian (Roman Catholic anyway) faith knew all about this and could have made this public knowledge but they remained neutral.

No, G10, the Pope is not the whole of the Christian, or even Catholic faith.

You guys are hell bent on guilt by association accusations. Using that tactic, I could claim that one Catholic dude in Ohio condemned the Third Reich and claim that the whole Catholic faith condemned the Third Reich.

[John Scott]

Originally Posted by Ferre

Allright. Do you believe in Jesus? How can you be sure he even existed? There is no historical or geological prove whatsoever that he did. It "can" be true but it can not be true as well. you have to 'believe' it.

The is plenty of historical, secular proof that he lived. That fact is not even debated. I am astonished that you did not know that.

[nigelaxis]

Originally Posted by Ferre

Allright. Do