The Pope Vs. Islam

[cloudtrance]

Though there is historical proof that he lived, there is no proof that he is the Son of God and that he was resurrected the third day

[John Scott]

Their neutral stance could be classed as acceptance to what was going on.

Definitely, they (those individuals) accepted it by not opposing it. Keyword is individuals. I know my grandfather used to be Catholic before becoming Protestant, and he fought on the front lines in WW2, so this crap strategy of "one guy didn't oppose it, so they all must be sister ****ers" just doesn't fly with me.

[Ferre]

Originally Posted by John Scott

The is plenty of historical, secular proof that he lived. That fact is not even debated. I am astonished that you did not know that.

Not correct. That's whichfull thinking. The only written accounts on his existance date 150 years after his supposed life, there are no accounts from historians from his time. None. Zero

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcno.htm
.

[John Scott]

Actually, Ferre, that is incorrect. The Roman goverment kept meticulous records, including the records of Jesus, and the apostles.

[Ferre]

Originally Posted by John Scott

Actually, Ferre, that is incorrect. The Roman goverment kept meticulous records, including the records of Jesus, and the apostles.

Nope John, they did not have any record on jesus from the time he supposedly lived whatsoever, I just showed you a study, read that link I gave you.

[G10]

I agree, the pope is an individual but the pope isn't just one man, he's the head of the catholic church and he speaks for the catholic church.

I can't compare it to some individual going on the radio and denouncing it.

As I said, I don't want to blame the entire Christian faiths on this, just the most important voice in the roman catholic church at the time.

[John Scott]

Ferre, you showed me an essay.

You might want to read up on the topic, and read the writings of non-Chstian historians who lived at the same time Christ did, such as Flavius Josephus .

[Ferre]

Originally Posted by John Scott

Ferre, you showed me an essay.

You might want to read up on the topic, and read the writings of non-Chstian historians who lived at the same time Christ did, such as Flavius Josephus .

John, the only people who believe that are conservative Christians, again, it's a matter of 'believing' and not historical facts...

Flavius Josephus: He was a Jewish historian who was born in 37 CE. In his book, Antiquities of the Jews, he described Jesus' as a wise man who was crucified by Pilate.
Most historians believe that the paragraph in which he describes Jesus is partly or completely a forgery that was inserted into the text by an unknown Christian. The passage "appears out of context, thereby breaking the flow of the narrative."
Josh McDowell, Don Stewart and other conservative Christians accept the entire passage as legitimate.

And Flavius Josephus did not live in the same time as Jesus, he was born 37 CE, after Jesus lived. Even IF his statement was not a forgery added in later, it still is nothing but hearsay.

[nigelaxis]

Ferre is correct on Flavius Josephus. It is agreed by historians that his work was forged on this particular topic.
Flavius does however mention a number of people named Jesus (it was not an unpopular name). But historians could not find any mention that could lead them to believe that any of those were the Jesus we are referring to. But historians won't except grey areas as proof.

I do recall that Flavius was not the only evidence though. But I cannot state the sources.

Ferre, any chance of you posting this topic on a history related site and showing the feedback?

[Ferre]

Originally Posted by nigelaxis

Ferre, any chance of you posting this topic on a history related site and showing the feedback?

Nope. All you get from those discussions are heated debates between people who "believe" and those who just go by historical facts.

To get back on the subject...

http://in.today.reuters.com/news/new...archived=False

Fabianus Tibo, Marianus Riwu and Dominggus Silva were sentenced to death in 2001 after being found guilty of leading a Christian mob in an attack that killed more than 200 people at an Islamic boarding school during Muslim-Christian clashes in Central Sulawesi's Poso region.

They have appealed to the Indonesian president for clemency and Pope Benedict has also called on Indonesia to stop the execution.

This shows that the violence between Christians and muslims is not a one way thing, BOTH religions are populated with fanatics who kill eachother because of their faith.

It also shows that the present Pope doesn't mind his followers to kill more than 200 people, mostly children btw.

[Ferre]

Btw, from that same reuters article:

Three Islamic militants have also been sentenced to death for their leading roles in the 2002 Bali nightclub bombings that killed 202 people.

Where is the Pope to ask for clemency in their case?

[G10]

I personally believe that the bible will be proven correct over time, as archeologists find more.

The bible named some city that nobody could find any reference to and people said it was made up, but, within the last century, archeologists have uncovered remnants of it and now say "wow, it really did exist"

Got some work to get on with, back later

[John Scott]

Originally Posted by nigelaxis

Ferre is correct on Flavius Josephus. It is agreed by historians that his work was forged on this particular topic.

Not all at, not even close. It's debated for petty reasons, and even those who think that wording was changed in some of the texts admit that he did write about Jesus in others.

Current state of the debate

Judging from Alice Whealey's 2003 survey of the historiography, it seems that the majority of modern scholars consider that Josephus really did write something here about Jesus, but that the text that has reached us is corrupt to a perhaps quite substantial extent. In the words of the Catholic Encyclopedia entry for Flavius Josephus, "The passage seems to suffer from repeated interpolations." There has been no consensus on which portions are corrupt, or to what degree.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus

[Ferre]

John, Flavius Josephus was born 37 CE.

According to the Bible, Jesus died when he was 33 years old, that would have been 33 CE. Four years before Flavius was born.

He did not live in Jesus' time and even IF his writings are not a forgery they still are a hear-say account.

If this was a trial this could not be used as evidence at all and scientists do not accept it as evidence. hearsay is just not good enough. Period.

[G10]

Evolutionary science is completely built on hearsay as they can't do the required experiments to prove their theories and yet a lot of people accept it

One of them is wrong.

[Ferre]

Originally Posted by G10

Evolutionary science is completely built on hearsay as they can't do the required experiments to prove their theories and yet a lot of people accept it

Not true, evolutionary science is based on 'circomstantial evidence', not hearsay. I agree that science has not found all the answers yet, it took them 20000+ years to discover how to use electricity and me personally I have no problem at all admitting that humanity doesn't know yet, but to claim that 'god' made everything is simply not acceptable for me, too many things (like electricity) have been credited to be 'god' before humanity found their real nature (notice I use the word nature)

[John Scott]

He did not live in Jesus' time and even IF his writings are not a forgery they still are a hear-say account.

If this was a trial this could not be used as evidence at all and scientists do not accept it as evidence. hearsay is just not good enough. Period.

Ferre, there is no evidence that I exist. Maybe