The Pope Vs. Islam

[John Scott]

Pictures, eye witnesses, etc.

You got any pictures of Cesar Augustus? You going to deny he lived, too? LOL

Look up the definition of eye witness accounts vs hearsay John before you make statements like that.

The Book of Matthew was written by Matthew, an apostle of Jesus. Of course you are going to claim that some World Trade Center bombing CIA agent planted that book, but then you're just silly now aren't you?

Paul did not live in Jesus' days too, he lived 150 years later. WHO did he know that 'knew' Jesus?

Who mentioned Paul? You're the only one talking about Paul. Read the article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus

[South]

Originally Posted by Ferre

Dude, you crack me up, you try to tell me that anyone who does understand and knows the bible automatically would be a believer?

I'm not saying that anyone who reads the bible becomes a beleiver, I'm saying that only a beleiver can deeply understand all of the Christian faith. I can see how that could have been read the other way. Sorry, I should have been more clear.

[South]

Originally Posted by cloudtrance

All religions preach love and forgiveness including Islam.. Living a life of love and understanding is the basis of all religions..not just Christianity..

I don't hate Muslims cloudtrance. I don't study the Quran so please correct me if I'm wrong. Doesn't Surah 9:5 instruct Muslims to do harmful things to those who don't follow it?

Here's how I read it. "fight and slay the pagans (or infidels or unbelievers) wherever you find them?"

And doesn't 3:151 instruct muslims to "cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve"?

And doesn't your god predestine some to damnation without hope of redemption? "He whom Allah doometh unto sin, thou (by thine efforts) wilt avail him naught against Allah. Those are they for whom the Will of Allah is that He cleanse not their hearts. Theirs in the world will be ignominy, and in the Hereafter an awful doom"

I'm not trying to cherry pick it, but my knowledge of it doesn't allow much more.

Answer a few questions to help me clear it up. I ask assuming you're a muslim.

Do you spiritually condemn those who terrorize others in the name of allah. Do you stand in vocal objection to Bin Laden and those who support him? Do you support or condemn military jihad?

[Buskerdoo]

Wow, this thread has morphed...

I was thinking about the original post last night as I watched muslims threating to kill the pope and cause other violence. It's a small group doing this but it make them all seem hypocritical.

I also read this.
"Following the lead of Rosie O'Donnell and ABC, NBC has decided to join in the bashing of Christians by airing a Madonna special in November.

In the show, Madonna, wearing a fake crown of thorns, descends on a suspended mirrored, disco ball-type cross. When some Christian leaders complained about the mockery, NBC ignored their concerns."

I haven't seen any Christians making threats or burning images of Rosie and Madonna.

[South]

Originally Posted by Buskerdoo

I haven't seen any Christians making threats or burning images of Rosie and Madonna.

You will hear some threats of boycott. You will not, however, see bombings, ritual beheadings, or hijacked planes flying into the TV networks. The correct Christian response is to pray for them in love.

"But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you." --Matthew 5:44

[Ferre]

Originally Posted by South

You will hear some threats of boycott. You will not, however, see bombings, ritual beheadings, or hijacked planes flying into the TV networks. The correct Christian response is to pray for them in love.

"But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you." --Matthew 5:44

I guess you missed this:

http://in.today.reuters.com/news/new...archived=False

Of course you can argue that those people are not Christians and read the criptures wrong, but the same thing is what the majority of the muslims say about muslim fanatics who do the killings and the bombings, if I ask my muslim neighbors they say that those terrorists don't understand Islam, they also say that Islam preaches peace and love.

As for me, I think that both religions have certain members who are totally fooked up.

[Ferre]

Originally Posted by John Scott

The Book of Matthew was written by Matthew, an apostle of Jesus.

You like to use wiki as a source which is all ok by me John...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Matthew

Again, it's highly questionable if even this Matthew existed...

Although the document is internally anonymous, the authorship of this Gospel has been traditionally ascribed to St. Matthew, a tax collector who became an Apostle of Jesus. The surviving testimony of the church fathers is unanimous in this view, and the tradition had been accepted by Christians at least as early as the 2nd century up to modern times. In addition, the title "According to Matthew" is found in the earliest manuscripts. [1] Beginning in the 18th century, however scholars have increasingly questioned that traditional view, and today the majority agree Matthew did not write the Gospel which bears his name.

[South]

Originally Posted by Ferre

I guess you missed this:

http://in.today.reuters.com/news/new...archived=False

No. I didn't miss this either. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades Christianity isn't the worship or following of men.

Of course you can argue that those people are not Christians and read the criptures wrong, but the same thing is what the majority of the muslims say about muslim fanatics who do the killings and the bombings, if I ask my muslim neighbors they say that those terrorists don't understand Islam, they also say that Islam preaches peace and love.

As for me, I think that both religions have certain members who are totally fooked up.

The human race has members that are fooked up. And forget about what people say. The Bible is the final and total word of Christianity and the quran the final and total word of islam. "He said she said" means nothing.

[South]

This sounds like comparisons of islam and Christianity. That's not my intention. There's one truth. Everything else is just everything else. No difference between one false and the other.

[Julie]

Fanatics/extremists of any religion are dangerous.

[littleFella]

Some things are striking in this recent hoopla.

Pope's quotes someone who said Islam was violent. So Muslims prove the pope wrong by resorting to violence.

But to be fair. The quote the pope used comes from a guy who lived about the same time when The Teutonic Order was showing the first signs of Lebensraum thirst. All in the name of Jesus of course.

Those to whom Jesus was just a fad (Prussians) weren't such angels either:
They would "roast captured brethren alive in their armour, like chestnuts, before the shrine of a local god".

[John Scott]

Originally Posted by Ferre

You like to use wiki as a source which is all ok by me John...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Matthew

Again, it's highly questionable if even this Matthew existed...

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=33401

You can question Matthew's existence until you are blue in the face, doesn't change the fact that he existed.

And you can deny John the Baptist while you are at it, but again there is overwhelming evidence of his life, too, and the only thing your protests prove is that you will argue in the face of reason to serve your passionate dislike of Christianity.

[Ferre]

I do not deny anything John, some scholars do, people who know a lot more about this issue than you and me. All I say is that there is much doubt about it all amongst scientists, antropologists, etc.

I do have a dislike for Christianity, as much as I dislike Islam btw. I do not deny that I think this world would be a better place without them fighting for power all the time.

See, what I think you don't understand is that people like me, who are not related to any of the Abrahamic religions are looking at those religions as a bystander and all we see is that those religions want the power to dictate the way we think, live, etc. they want to own our soul, make us "sheep" as mentioned in their scriptures.

People like me don't need that crap, we can figure out for ourselves what is wrong or right and we don't need a nanny and we don't need to "serve" some imaginary entity. We DO have morals and values, we don't need a 'religion' to tell us that stealing and killing is wrong, we already knew that.

I am not an atheist either, I do not believe in the sense that people do who believe in the Abrahamic scriptures, I have an ancient believe system that has been passed on to me by my family. I believe that I am part of nature, I believe that no living thing is meant to "serve" any other living thing and that includes animals and plants. I believe that we should love nature and everything in it. It goes a lot further than that but I won't bother you with it, just look up shamanism to get an idea.

Reason that I dislike the Abrahamic religions is because they have persecuted my kind of people since the day they were founded. My dislike for Abrahamic religions is the same, and has the same roots, as the dislike jews have for nazism.

Sorry about that, but do some research on how Christianity untill this very day persecutes members of my religion. Even the drugs war is a war against us. Eventough art. 18 of the Universal declaration of Human Rights protect 'religious practises' and eventhough the use of entheogens is recorded since ancient times as a religious practise members of my religion are hunted down for it and jailed by the thousands. Every 45 seconds someone goes to jail for using Cannabis, one of the sacred plants in mine, and the Hindu religion.

Those who made those laws are Christians and the first one who started this was Pope Innocenti who declared Cannabis "the devils weed" and who also started the Inquisition.

Just as the Jews dislike nazis for discriminating and persecuting them, we dislike those who discriminate and persecute us.

[John Scott]

See, what I think you don't understand is that people like me, who are not related to any of the Abrahamic religions are looking at those religions as a bystander and all we see is that those religions want the power to dictate the way we think, live, etc. they want to own our soul, make us "sheep" as mentioned in their scriptures.

Religions want the power? Show me a religion. How much does a religion weight? How tall is a religion? What do they eat?

"Religion" does not exist to want power. Religions are beliefs, and they exist only in man. Religions do not want power. Men want power, and sometimes they use beliefs to get other men to fall in under them. Sometimes they use religious beliefs, sometimes they use political beliefs, and sometimes they use Pro-Marijuana beliefs to garner support.

Blaming religion is just as stupid as blaming pro-legalization propaganda. Judge people according to their actions, not based on some silly anti-spirituality phobia.

[Ferre]

Originally Posted by John Scott

Religions want the power? Show me a religion. How much does a religion weight? How tall is a religion? What do they eat?

"Religion" does not exist to want power. Religions are beliefs, and they exist only in man. Religions do not want power. Men want power, and sometimes they use beliefs to get other men to fall in under them. Sometimes they use religious beliefs, sometimes they use political beliefs, and sometimes they use Pro-Marijuana beliefs to garner support.

Blaming religion is just as stupid as blaming pro-legalization propaganda. Judge people according to their actions, not based on some silly anti-spirituality phobia.

If it was true what you say, we would not have this muslim/Christian conflict all the time, just look at how it dominates the news every single day. Just look at history how many wars have been going on, and are still going on in the name of those two religions.

I wished you were right, seriously.