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Old 09-19-2006, 01:22 PM   #101 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mia
And here we have a Pope now that is not keeping quiet, and look what it got him!

You can't win for losing.
I actually respect the Pope for saying what he believes instead of staying quiet, he is also entitled to his opinion.

Quote:
Popes speech: "Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."
And what do they do?

Quote:
Influential Qatari Muslim scholar, Yusuf al-Qaradawi, called for a day of anger this Friday, saying the Pope had not apologised.
Also
Quote:
At least seven churches have now been attacked since the speech in areas under the Palestinian Authority.
Are they proving his speech wrong or right here?
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Old 09-19-2006, 08:21 PM   #102 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by South
That's not accurate.
Don't Muslims, like Christians, recognize the teachings of Abraham? (Ibrahim in Arabic)
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Old 09-19-2006, 08:26 PM   #103 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Ferre
Both Mussolini and Hitler were openly supported by 'Rome' btw, even when the war was going on for a couple of years already, Rome didn't 'back out' untill it was clear that the nazis were loosing. Look it up in google if you don't believe this.
Well, we need more material to see if that was really true. Some of it is coming to the surface.
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Old 09-20-2006, 02:50 AM   #104 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by littleFella
Don't Muslims, like Christians, recognize the teachings of Abraham? (Ibrahim in Arabic)
They also treat John the Baptist as a prophet, but that doesn't mean Christians and Muslims worship the same God.
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Old 09-20-2006, 02:53 AM   #105 (permalink)
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They both claim that their god is the only god though, which is a contradiction in itself.

The mere fact that they both exist (I mean the religions, not the gods) indicates that there's more than one god.


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Old 09-20-2006, 03:04 AM   #106 (permalink)
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They both claim that their god is the only god though, which is a contradiction in itself.

The mere fact that they both exist (I mean the religions, not the gods) indicates that there's more than one god.
How is thart a contradiction? Religions existing does not mean that the corresponding god exists.
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Old 09-20-2006, 03:09 AM   #107 (permalink)
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That's why I put (I mean the religions, not the gods) in there.

(Everyone knows that the Flying Spaghetti Monster is the ONLY god)
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Old 09-20-2006, 06:37 AM   #108 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by John Scott
They also treat John the Baptist as a prophet, but that doesn't mean Christians and Muslims worship the same God.
Muslims commonly refer to Jews as fellow "People of the Book": people who follow the same general teachings in relation to the worship of the one God worshipped by Abraham, that means that what? Abraham worked in fact for two different Gods? And each of those Gods was in fact the only God? What about Archangel Gabriel and Jesus, both of whom Muslims recognize (although Jesus is a prophet, not God, to them). Did Gabriel and Jesus offer revelations of two different Gods, one to Jews/Christians and the other to Muslims?

To me it looks that muslims appear to think they believe in the same God.
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Old 09-20-2006, 07:21 AM   #109 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by littleFella
Muslims commonly refer to Jews as fellow "People of the Book": people who follow the same general teachings in relation to the worship of the one God worshipped by Abraham, that means that what? Abraham worked in fact for two different Gods? And each of those Gods was in fact the only God? What about Archangel Gabriel and Jesus, both of whom Muslims recognize (although Jesus is a prophet, not God, to them). Did Gabriel and Jesus offer revelations of two different Gods, one to Jews/Christians and the other to Muslims?

To me it looks that muslims appear to think they believe in the same God.
I've sometimes heard muslims say that as well. They too are incorrect. If the difference is hard to grasp, or you feel like the differences are nitpicking....consider this.

Faith isn't a light matter. Among those who accept it it's an eternal absolute on which most every aspect of your life has relation. It's a known truth to those who allow themselves to experience it. That's why Christians sometimes "preach at you". It's not to talk down to or judge you, but to try and relay that which they know is real and good enough for them to want you to share in it. It's so good that there is a genuine fear that some will miss out on it, and real sorrow when it's rejected.

Since the entireity of the faith is based on God, and we know God not by his face but by His nature, changing the nature of God means you've left Him out of it and faith falls empty. Example: take a historical figure who you know by history only...say Ben Franklin. Take a factual biography of his life and add little falshoods all around it. He divorced his 8th wife and married a mud monster, he wore pink skirts to town meetings, he discovered the cow. Then at the end of it add a few new chapters about how he went on to form the national alliance of meat grinders and was the first man to set foot on the then planet Pluto. No matter how much original fact is left in that book, it's no longer a book about Ben Franklin. That's not who he was at all, and reading it you'll learn about an imaginary man based on Franklin.

When you add to the scripture what doesn't balance or support the nature of God, if the old doesn't support the new, if the new doesn't reflect the old, if you change who god is it's no longer God, but an imaginary character based on God. While that may be not big deal to a non beleiver, beleivers see the danger of it and that's why it's discussed.
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Old 09-20-2006, 08:17 AM   #110 (permalink)
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You certainly have some valid points here, but the problem I see with the argument as the basis of saying that Islam recognizes a different God is that of interpretation. Jews interpret some of the passages in a different way than Christians, and for that matter even Christians differ amongst themselves in issues ranging from details to major theological issues. That doesn't doesn't mean their respective interpretations refer to a different God, does it?

Moreover, all Big 3 have the convenient "institution" of prophecy, whereby the prophet may cancel/modify some of what had been previously regarded the only true doctrine to follow. There have been a few such events on the religious history. And even within the Old Testament alone God appears to have changed his mind on a few occasions, or at least presented views that were conflicting (for the lack of a better word).

Your Franklin example makes sense in general, but IMO doesn't apply here. I'd see the difference amongst the Big 3 are more along these lines: "we have the same one and only God, but you guys have totally misunderstood his words, which were better explained by our latest prophet, not yours. Ours then, is the right way to praise Him."
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Old 09-20-2006, 08:44 AM   #111 (permalink)
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And even within the Old Testament alone God appears to have changed his mind on a few occasions, or at least presented views that were conflicting
Is there a problem with that?
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Old 09-20-2006, 09:07 AM   #112 (permalink)
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And even within the Old Testament alone God appears to have changed his mind on a few occasions, or at least presented views that were conflicting (for the lack of a better word).
Where do you see that?
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Old 09-20-2006, 09:37 AM   #113 (permalink)
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Where do you see that?
A few of those.
For instance:
GE 2:17 God told Adam would die the day he ate the forbidden fruit.
GE 5:5 Adam lived 930 years.

EX 20:13 God prohibits killing.
EX 32:27 God orders killing.
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Old 09-20-2006, 09:43 AM   #114 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by littleFella
A few of those.
For instance:
GE 2:17 God told Adam would die the day he ate the forbidden fruit.
GE 5:5 Adam lived 930 years.

EX 20:13 God prohibits killing.
EX 32:27 God orders killing.
God didn't prohibit killing, He prohibited murder.
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Old 09-20-2006, 09:44 AM   #115 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by littleFella
A few of those.
For instance:
GE 2:17 God told Adam would die the day he ate the forbidden fruit.
He did.

Doesn't the bible also give an example of time as a day to 1000 years

You want me to start ironing out all the others as well?
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Old 09-20-2006, 09:47 AM   #116 (permalink)
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God often changed his mind in the Old Testament. HE often gave in to the wishes of the Isrealites, even though He was against some things, like Isreal having a king.
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Old 09-20-2006, 10:13 AM   #117 (permalink)
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