Saddam Dead

[RobS]

Originally Posted by EBORG9

You know whats really funny? How so many people feel comfortable bashing America and it's foriegn policy, and making statements like "The attitude of it's citizens are reflective of the Government"., as if their country, does not have a negative, or humourous perception in the world.

How many of the countries, that most of you bashers are from, are countries that dont do crap when the world needs them. Not just in this situation, but others through recent out history.

Where is anyone when peole are getting literaly slaughtered in Central Africa?
Where is everyone? Why does it always have to be the U.S.?

Why do we send 300k troops somewhere, and 20 other countries send 50k combined and call that "Doing their part"? Are you kidding me?

Are our sons and daughters less important than yours? When there is a situation that the world agrees on, Like Deset Storm,
WE ALWAYS SEND MORE TROOPS AND SPEND MORE MONEY THAN ANYONE ELSE!!! Doesn't France have 50k troops? of The Netherlands, or Italy?
We always invest more lives.
The entire world agreed with Desrt Storm and voted to take military action, yet the U.S. had to send 185k troops and the rest of the world combined sent 50k.

To many countries sit by and do nothing...wait for us to do something, and then either sing our praises when all is well, or bash us when all is wrong.

It is very easy to sit back and second guess someone elses actions when you never get involved in anything.

We may be arrogant, but it's only because sometimes we feel like nobody else is ever ready to help out in the "good fight" , (although they are not as frequent)

How many countries do nothing more than letters of support in the U.N., or have contracts to "support" our troops, by selling the U.S. products needed to fight the war.
Why do countries in the U.N wait for our reaction to address a problem, when it is in their backyard.
We do we have to speak with N.Korea? China and Japan are right frickin" there!
Why did we have to put 60 years of economic and political pressure on the USSR and spend billions keep up our Nuke programs to keep the balance of power. 30 countries were right there in thier backyard!

The reason we get involved in a lot of things is because so many other countries ,wait to see what happens.
Talk does not always work!
So many countries wont get involved in problems in their own backyard, but they will sure as hell will sell us products, and supplies when we do.

Other countries wont let us use thier air space to get our planes and supplies accross to our troops, but they will sell it to us, for 100 trillion in trade and and government contracts.

The whole world is a bunch of hypocrites, everybodys opinion is for sale.
And dont even get me started on nuetral countries, "we wont take a stand on either side...we want to make money off of everybody."

As for the "secret" wars and espionage that America is involed in..EVERY COUNTRY has covert operations. The only difference is ..we stand up and say "Yeah we did it!" (most of the time).

There is stuff going on in this world that we cannot even compehend, and sometimes we have to fight dirty to keep everyone safe, or else one day some little insignificant group is going to cause a major catastrophy and everyone will be sitting around saying
"Why didn't America do something"
I would love to see us sit home for a change and let India and Pakistan work it out alone.
Let S.Korea, Japan, and China, talk to N. Korea.
Let the E.U handle the left over rogues from the former Soviet Union, and hunt down all the missing Nukes.
It woeld be great to see Pakistan hunt down terrorist strong holds on their own.
How nice would it be if The nieghboring countries to Columbia, helped stop drug cartels, from killing innocent people, and goverment officials, and pushing dope all over the world.

Let everyone handle the problems that are closest to them.

The problem with that is. They won't!
When shit jumps off and we stay neutral, the lead story is always, "..and the world is awaiting reaction from the U.S.", but when we initiate, it always
"..the U.S is a bunch arrogant, imperialistic cowboy's who only care about their own interests"

If you ask me, you are all a bunch of hypocrites.

This is what your media would like you to believe...

Also... If you check... those who you say are USA bashers...do NOT praise their own places like you have here...THATS the difference..

[EBORG9]

Originally Posted by Ferre

History shows that the USA is the biggest creator of banana republics the past century. They NEED to keep the world destabilized because that's what drives their economy. The minute we have peace in this world the USA faces the fact that they have no real products to compete on the world market and their economy will collapse. The only thing that keeps their head above water (economically) is their war industry.

You have got to be kidding me! Then why are so many foriegn companies, and countries, constantly trying to get our business.
What software runs that computer you are typing on?
( I don't want to start that list again)
Yeah, we have a powerful military. We have to.
Let me just ask you one question. If your country was invaded or threatened militarily, how comfortable would you be, if , lets say....Mexico, was the only one to send military support?
Our economy is fine, you know why? because of all the crap you all keep buying while you are bashing us.
You know what our best export is? America itself. The culture. The music, the movies, the fashions. ect.
I may see one film from another country a year, but I'll bet you have all seen at least 50 from the U.S.
I have a few artists in my collection that are not Americans, but I'll bet you all know who J-lo , Will Smith, Aerosmith and Madonna are.
Most of you watch CNN, and FOX, speak english, and have mobile phones (motorala) a technology made possible by military communication, by the way, and you can sit there and say America has no industry?

But since you mentioned it, lets see how the American Military has enriched your life?
GPS tracking and satelites for shipping, trains, cars, and personal use
. US Military
Nylon, and other matierials used in clothing- US Military
Many Vaccinations and medical cures - US Military
Wireless communications - US Military
Puncture resistant tires-US military
Stealth Technology ( that the whole world western uses)-US Military
Microwave ovens -US Military
THE INTERNET ( the way it operates today)- US Military
Medivac Helicopters- US Military
Steam Engines-US Military
The list goes on.
Once again. Hypocrits. It is OK as long as it benefits you, but let the bashing begin when something goes awry.
If you want to bash and say that the US is no good, and has no purpose in the world, and we have no economy , then throw all those things away, and earn the right to bash.

You are using American ingenuity right now! I could go on for days, but that was a really uninformed statement from such an educated man.

By the way, I hope everyone had a safe New Year, and I wish everyone, health, happiness, and succes in 2007.

[EBORG9]

Originally Posted by RobS

This is what your media would like you to believe...

Also... If you check... those who you say are USA bashers...do NOT praise their own places like you have here...THATS the difference..

Trust me, most of us with any education, know how biased the media can be.
We do not take it as gospel.
As I said before, we are far from perfect, but we as humans are far from perfect.
If we all cared just a little more about others, there would be no hunger or economic strife, anywhere in the world.

The differnce is..I will complain about America, as is my right as a voting citizen,and a veteran soldier, but I will not denounce my country, no matter what.
In Desrt Storm we complained about a lot of shit, but we fought proudly, with our heads held high.
Belive me, I am not Happy with the way things have gone in this administration. And I think our President has made some huge mistakes, and no I didn't vote for him.

But I would step in front of a bullet to protect him.

Thats not ignorance, it's Patriotism. And I will proudly stand up to anybody who threatens my Country, as I am sure you all would for yours.

[RobS]

But I would step in front of a bullet to protect him.

Are you SERIOUS??
If so... well I will say no more... that is something I cannot even comprehend.. you would risk your life for him??? wow.. think he would for you?? NOPE.

Thats not ignorance, it's Patriotism. And I will proudly stand up to anybody who threatens my Country, as I am sure you all would for yours.

Is it??
I would call that CRAZY...
I would NOT for mine like that no... why should I?
I dont agree with much of what my country does...so why would I defend them?

[EBORG9]

No not for "Him"! Somebody posted a while back that "we used to stand for something" and here I see a bunch of people who stand for nothing.

It's not about the person running the country, it's about the country as a whole.
Once again, selfishness, and apathy. "As long as I got mine, screw everyone else."

I can't believe, anyone one who lives in a Democracy, or a free society where they are allowed to practice freedoms, and have oportunities that many in the world don't , or will never have, will not stand up to protect those freedoms, and the freedoms and the rights and protection of their fellow country men, and the next generation. If nothing else at least out of respect for those that have gone before you so we can have those freedoms.

I am not some kook who is all the way gung ho", no matter what.
Do you think I wanted to go the Kawaiit, and get shot at by a people who use religion for a justification for everything. Hell no! Nobody wants to go to war! I had a good job, a hot girlfriend, 1 year left in college. Shit was going good.

But I will be damned if I can consider myself a man and a citizen of my country and of the world, and let someone else do it, and reap all the benfits,from sitting on my ass.
If nothing else, out of respect for those that have gone before me, when they didn't want to go either, but they sacraficed for the good of all.
I don't need to remind anyone that we are not all speaking German, and all the Jews, Blacks, and everyone else that are not blonde and blue eyed, have not been inilated.

It's sad that the only thing people believe in is themselves. If our fathers and grandfathers felt that way, most of us would not even be alive, and the world would be a much different place right now.

I guess that pretty much sums it all up. I guess thats something that generational. Nobody gives a shit anymore. Also the reason jerks keep getting in office.

That's ok, you have that right. You keep sitting in front of your computer playing Zelda.
There will always people who will protect you, because they get it.
Freedom costs.

Too bad no one has that kind of pride anymore....it's sad.

[Ferre]

Steam engines invented by US military?

I rest my case.

[Sabeur]

It was invented by the british, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_locomotive it was called Locomotive. We know America changed the world with good things like the internet but when it comes to politic America sucks.

[Ferre]

Nope, it was invented by Hero of Alexandria in the first century AD.

But indeed, the USA has some stuff to trade, there's nothing wrong with trade but their trade/export of consumer products does not give a positive balance, without their wars they'd go bancrupt.

If you don't believe me it's very easy to check out for yourself.

[EBORG9]

Originally Posted by Ferre

Nope, it was invented by Hero of Alexandria in the first century AD.

But indeed, the USA has some stuff to trade, there's nothing wrong with trade but their trade/export of consumer products does not give a positive balance, without their wars they'd go bancrupt.

If you don't believe me it's very easy to check out for yourself.

Yeah I got the steam thing wrong, may have been for shipping or something. I didn't look that one up.
But we would not go belly up without war. Thats rediculous.
But I will say this...if we go belly up.... we are taking a crap load of countries with us. It will be a chain reaction.

But many benefit from the conflicts that we are involved in, while they are bitching about it.

Good luck getting tanker ships out of the Persian Gulf, without a couple of Battle Groups on patrol and sweeping for mines.
Do you think all of those tanker ships are American? No!

Do you think the countries that use the oil that comes off of those Tankers, pitches in a boat or a little gas money to help out? No!

Do you think the average person in China, Japan, E.U. or anywhere else for that matter care that the American Navy, and the seaman on those ships are patroling to keep the shipping lanes open, when they go to the market, or start their car up, or take the train to work ? No!

How do you think the protesters in other countries get to the protest site to bad mouth America? Do they walk? No !

My whole point is when we get involved, even if it's wrong, a lot of people benefit from it, and then turn their backs on us. It's a slap in the face for every serviceman who has escorted a truck or convoy, or ship safely out of harms way, that is bound for France, or any other country.

Or gone in to escort the delegation of a European Diplomats out of an Embassy in a destablizing area.

Americans are dogs of war up front, but God forbid, a shipment of Wii's, or Playstation III's, gets mined in an Asian shipping channel.

Or China goes from their new car boom, back to horse , and bicycle, bcause nobody will take a ship into the Gulf anymore.

If we do go belly up, we'll just start charging the world for protection of its interests. Lord knows the Netherlands is not going to send a fleet of Aircraft Carriers to Asia to keep the the shipping lanes open.

Or France is not going to send in troops to stabilize, and rebuild a major pipeline.
Or send its citizens and engineers in to put out the most massive oil fires in world history.

That is America Baby!

You all send 15 advisors and call it "Coalition".
We send the whole frickin tribe, and their friends, and our sons and daugeters, because without it, your 15 "advisors" would be toast in about 45 minutes

Everyone bitches about or policies and actions , while they are sitting there, free to bitch about or policies and actions.

So you can call all the names you want, and call us Imperialistic, arrogant, greedy cocksuckers...but when the chips are down, who is gets the first call.
So maybe war is a big industry, but without it, most of the rest of the world would be up shit creek with a $12,000 paddle.

[Ferre]

Dude, you crack me up, you really believe that this world couldn't do without the US?

That's exactly what Americans are supposed (and conditioned to the max) to believe, like the myth that they are the ones keeping this planet safe. The truth is a whole different story, the truth is that the world can miss the USA like they can miss a bad toothache. The USA turned into an imperialist indoctrinating nation that irritates the hell out of most other countries, they have lost about all their allies the past years and they are loosing ground at the international economic field as well.

You'll be in for a bad surprise when the bubble burst and the dollar goes down, and don't think that can't happen, all the signs indicate that the dollar is walking on its last legs. Ask all those rich Americans like Bill Gates why they are desperately dumping their stock.

[Linda in NY]

I'm beginning to think that some people on this board, IF, they were alive during the WWII era and in an occupied or threatened country (occupied or threatened by Hitler, and the other Axis powers, then when the Americans arrived to help, their first comment would be.

Shit what took you so long, and Not thank you !

Just my opinion from reading this topic daily. Anyways, have a nice New Years Holiday.

Linda

[Ferre]

Originally Posted by Linda in NY

I'm beginning to think that some people on this board, IF, they were alive during the WWII era and in an occupied or threatened country (occupied or threatened by Hitler, and the other Axis powers, then when the Americans arrived to help, their first comment would be.

Shit what took you so long, and Not thank you !

Just my opinion from reading this topic daily. Anyways, have a nice New Years Holiday.

Linda

I can answer that one very easy. During ww2 it was NOT just America that can claim the credits for liberating Europe, in fact, they only got involved after they found out that Russia could do that (liberate Europe) and most probably would have. Europe was liberated by coalition forces of which the USA was part, Canada and Australia where amongst the many countries that joined forces. In fact, the Netherlands was not freed by Americans but by Canadian forces. Needless to say that European countries are thankful for that but the truth is that America only got involved when they got attacked themselves, before that they had no interest whatsoever to help Europe and their main motivation was to prevent Russia to get influence after the war if they were the ones liberating most of Europe.

We all know the history of the race between Russia and America be the first to reach Berlin.

Having said that, this was a long time ago and America has lost its credibility since that time.

Bringing ww2 up every time that someone critisizes the actions of the USA today is lame and totally misplaced. When someone commits a crime they are not excused because they have been doing good things in their past, they are judged by the crimes they committed today.

America has done good deeds in the past but that doesn't give them the green light, or the rights, to commit crimes now.

[Linda in NY]

Originally Posted by Ferre

Needless to say that European countries are thankful for that but the truth is that America only got involved when they got attacked themselves, before that they had no interest whatsoever to help Europe and their main motivation was to prevent Russia to get influence after the war if they were the ones liberating most of Europe.

Granted the USA wanted to beat the Russians to the punch and Patton had an ongoing competition with Montgomery. See there are issues of Pride elsewhere and not just the USA.

So the aid to Europe by the Merchant Marines, before being attacked by the Japanese does not count as wanting to help Europe.

Thank you for clearing that up.

[EBORG9]

We are not "conditioned" to believe anything.

t's not that I believe that the worold couldn't get along with out us, I think it would be catastrophic if any of the leading nations to experience a depression. It would be a huge drain on the world economy.

Our economics goes in cycles of good and bad, and I remember a few of them over the years, but its interesting that the EU nations are finally experiencing some economic solidarity and now everyone is all high and mighty.

You guy's are just one year of bad crops, or a blocked shipping lane away from a recession just like everybody else.

No one in europe has a history of being self reliant. Twice the world has come to bail you out of a situation that could have been stopped before it got out of hand.
and helped out with other smaller actions when they got out of hand.

We get flack, but most of the time we are running to someones aid.

The French were in Vietnam first, not us. We went in because they were getting slaughtered. But history remembers it as our war.
So what you are saying is, when it happens again, we can sit at home and let the EU protect it self. We would love to keep our troops home.

The bottom line is a big part of war is economics, and most of the world has been so used to the US stepping in that if we suddenly disappeared off the planet a huge shift would take place, because most of the countries in the world do not have the resources to continually "patrol" areas like shipping lanes and keep them safe for WORLD trade.

No matter what we do, if we get ours, everybody gets theirs too.

Trade in the world is heavily dependent on shipping, and always will be.

Honestly, if you can answer this question, I may see your point a little better.

If the U.S pulled all of its Naval Battle Groups away from strategic shipping lanes around the world, like the Persian Gulf....who would take our place?

Britain? France? The Netherlands? Italy? Latvia? Mexico? Canada? Ireland?
Australia? Western Samoa? China? Spain? Russia?
And if those areas go unprotected, how big would the economic impact on the world be?

We all need each other in the world for continued economic survival, and no one is expendable. It just seems to me, and this is just my oinion because I have been there, that the sacrafice we make, always seems to be bigger than everyone else, when the chips are down. And we are getting sick of it.

The common perception to most of the Americans I know, is that when it comes to making the sacrafices, we always make the most, and the rest of the world needs to start pulling their weight, and not just reap the benefits.

I never saw a foriegn embassy refuse the help of US Marines, when they came to rescue them.

I bring up the Gulf War because I was there, but, it was a UN resolution, yet we had all the troops and equiptment and ships there. Why did we have more troops than the rest of the UN coalition combined?

Are we the only ones that use oil?
Why did we loose 118,000 troops in Vietnam? We didnt start it and the French left when we got there.
Why do we have 1000's of troops in Afghanistan searching out Taliban, arent they a threat to the world?

Didnt we help out when Hitler went nuts of Europe?
Why did we have to bomb Libiya? wasn't Khadaafi a threat to the whole region? He"s closer to you than us. We had to travel to get him.

We are easy to bash, because we are a big target. No on bashes the Netherlands, because they stay under the radar, and don't commit.

We are all in this together, good and bad. Dont dog us when it doesn't fit in with your agenda, and then, get in the photograph when it all works out well.

We havee two terms for that in America:
* Two Faced
and
* "Player Hating"

Personally, I think we should stay out of everything unless it affects us directly and let the rest of the world fight for themselves.

Close the borders, and lock the doors, and you can all sit over there with every madman with a nuke, a dirty bomb, and an agenda and fight it out with your own coalition.

It s easy for you to sit back and judge, no one is bashing you and you dont send in troops anywhere.
Isn't the Netherlands neutral? You will never have to go and fight anywhere. You will just reap the benfits of the outcome no matter who wins. If Hitler had not been defeated, you'd be speaking German. He didn't so now you are speaking english. If neutrality works for you that fine.
It don't work for us.