The Netherlands supports the global coalition against terrorism with leadership, personnel and material, including the deployment of troops to Iraq and Afghanistan. The Prime Minister stated the U.S. and his country stand "shoulder to shoulder" in the struggle for global security.
Damn you Dutch! All of you! Stop the madness, and throw your weight around if you want to stop the war! I blame everyone currently living in the Netherlands for this show of support, including Queen Beatrix! Surely 16 million people can make a difference ... oh ... wait ... Los Angeles has more people than that, and WE can't stop the madness.
Never mind ... sorry. Maybe I'd better go back to WWII, hmmm? You guys are lucky ... this war has gone on longer than WWII, and you haven't been invaded, yet. Chalk it up to smart people, I guess. Us stupid folks just need to take our lumps. <sigh>
Hehhe, that's outdated, that prime minister and his whole government got sacked a couple of months ago because of this sort of actions on their part. We had elections last month and now the Dutch are forming a new government. Left made a huge election victory and all the parties that were responcible for that support lost massively and are not even big enough to form a coalition anymore.
You just described our most-recent elections, Ferre. As the State Department puts it (and you should read closely, because this is how our government sees yours ...)
Quote:
General elections were held in November 2006. The previous government of the center-right Christian Democrats (CDA) and conservative Liberals (VVD) under CDA Prime Minister Jan Peter Balkenende has caretaker status and stays until the next government is formed, which foreseeably will happen in early 2007. Given the consensus-based nature of the Dutch Government, elections do not usually result in any drastic change in foreign or domestic policy.
Hardly an expectation of change in policy. Now, if you could just elect a different Queen ...
All I'm saying is that every country has its wimps and its demagogues ... people who seek power for its own sake. It's downright rude and completely inaccurate to suggest that an entire population shares the (twisted) vision of its elected (or annointed) leaders, and shows little else other than a need to feed ones own sense of power. If you could get out of your political sphere and look more broadly, we could discuss such tasteless things as why all white people hate people of any other color, just because a few do. We are not cut from the same cloth, and we all have our own perspectives, regardless of who is running the government, however temporarily.
Please, Ferre, lay off the America-bashing and turn your considerable talents for dredging up bad news toward some area where it would make a difference ... like Microsoft-bashing, or Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation-bashing, or Windows-bashing. Y'know, the real global problems.
And people wonder why I didn't get upset about 9/11. My husband woke me up and told me about it... and I went back to sleep. I had been suprised it took someone that long to attack america.. while Bush is trying to rule the world.. he has left the usa completely open for attack.
Geez, too bad you're so insensitive.
Now I know the truth, that even the attacks in the 1990's and before were Georges' Fault too, thanks for clearing that up.
Here's a list for you.
1975
Jan. 24, New York City: bomb set off in historic Fraunces Tavern killed 4 and injured more than 50 people. Puerto Rican nationalist group (FALN) claimed responsibility, and police tied 13 other bombings to the group.
1979
Nov. 4, Tehran, Iran: Iranian radical students seized the U.S. embassy, taking 66 hostages. 14 were later released. The remaining 52 were freed after 444 days on the day of President Reagan's inauguration.
1982–1991
Lebanon: Thirty US and other Western hostages kidnapped in Lebanon by Hezbollah. Some were killed, some died in captivity, and some were eventually released. Terry Anderson was held for 2,454 days.
1983
April 18, Beirut, Lebanon: U.S. embassy destroyed in suicide car-bomb attack; 63 dead, including 17 Americans. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility.
Oct. 23, Beirut, Lebanon: Shiite suicide bombers exploded truck near U.S. military barracks at Beirut airport, killing 241 marines. Minutes later a second bomb killed 58 French paratroopers in their barracks in West Beirut.
Dec. 12, Kuwait City, Kuwait: Shiite truck bombers attacked the U.S. embassy and other targets, killing 5 and injuring 80.
1984
Sept. 20, east Beirut, Lebanon: truck bomb exploded outside the U.S. embassy annex, killing 24, including 2 U.S. military.
Dec. 3, Beirut, Lebanon: Kuwait Airways Flight 221, from Kuwait to Pakistan, hijacked and diverted to Tehran. 2 Americans killed.
1985
April 12, Madrid, Spain: Bombing at restaurant frequented by U.S. soldiers, killed 18 Spaniards and injured 82.
June 14, Beirut, Lebanon: TWA Flight 847 en route from Athens to Rome hijacked to Beirut by Hezbollah terrorists and held for 17 days. A U.S. Navy diver executed.
Oct. 7, Mediterranean Sea: gunmen attack Italian cruise ship, Achille Lauro. One U.S. tourist killed. Hijacking linked to Libya.
Dec. 18, Rome, Italy, and Vienna, Austria: airports in Rome and Vienna were bombed, killing 20 people, 5 of whom were Americans. Bombing linked to Libya.
1986
April 2, Athens, Greece:A bomb exploded aboard TWA flight 840 en route from Rome to Athens, killing 4 Americans and injuring 9.
April 5, West Berlin, Germany: Libyans bombed a disco frequented by U.S. servicemen, killing 2 and injuring hundreds.
1988
Dec. 21, Lockerbie, Scotland: N.Y.-bound Pan-Am Boeing 747 exploded in flight from a terrorist bomb and crashed into Scottish village, killing all 259 aboard and 11 on the ground. Passengers included 35 Syracuse University students and many U.S. military personnel. Libya formally admitted responsibility 15 years later (Aug. 2003) and offered $2.7 billion compensation to victims' families.
1993
Feb. 26, New York City: bomb exploded in basement garage of World Trade Center, killing 6 and injuring at least 1,040 others. In 1995, militant Islamist Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman and 9 others were convicted of conspiracy charges, and in 1998, Ramzi Yousef, believed to have been the mastermind, was convicted of the bombing. Al-Qaeda involvement is suspected.
1995
April 19, Oklahoma City: car bomb exploded outside federal office building, collapsing wall and floors. 168 people were killed, including 19 children and 1 person who died in rescue effort. Over 220 buildings sustained damage. Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols later convicted in the antigovernment plot to avenge the Branch Davidian standoff in Waco, Tex., exactly 2 years earlier. (See Miscellaneous Disasters.)
Nov. 13, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: car bomb exploded at U.S. military headquarters, killing 5 U.S. military servicemen.
1996
June 25, Dhahran, Saudi Arabia: truck bomb exploded outside Khobar Towers military complex, killing 19 American servicemen and injuring hundreds of others. 13 Saudis and a Lebanese, all alleged members of Islamic militant group Hezbollah, were indicted on charges relating to the attack in June 2001.
1998
Aug. 7, Nairobi, Kenya, and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania: truck bombs exploded almost simultaneously near 2 U.S. embassies, killing 224 (213 in Kenya and 11 in Tanzania) and injuring about 4,500. 4 men connected with al-Qaeda 2 of whom had received training at al-Qaeda camps inside Afghanistan, were convicted of the killings in May 2001 and later sentenced to life in prison. A federal grand jury had indicted 22 men in connection with the attacks, including Saudi dissident Osama bin Laden, who remained at large.
Have a good look at that list and you'll find, between the lines, that in many places in the world people do not exactly appreciate the presence of American troops on their soil.
What the American public always avoids to ask is; WHY do those terrorists do that?
Ask yourself, WHY.
I remember when 'freedom fighters' in the Netherlands hyjacked trains, schools and the Indonesian embassy, these were acts of terrorism and the main question in my country was 'why are they so pissed off'.
The answer was very clear and shameful for us Dutchies. It turned out that our government had betrayed those people and had lured them to Holland under false promises of officially recognizing their state and to support them to get their island back from the Indonesian government who annexated it.
See, those people had been fighting on the side of Holland against the Japanese and later the Indonesian liberation forces and when Holland lost that war (and Indonesia), the Dutch government shipped those people into Holland (most of them were employed by the Dutch army) with their families and promissed them to recognize their state and to help them and support them to return and that never happened.
Because of industrial interests the Dutch government made deals with the new regime in Indonesia and never did anything to hold the promisse they made to those people, who are from an island named 'Ambon' btw.
What happened was that the Ambon government in exile (In the Netherlands) and all those people were waiting for 30 years untill their patience blew up and the youngsters who grew up with stories about their homeland and the promisses that the Dutch government made, became quite fanatic and demanded justice for their cause.
Again, the Dutch government ignored them, untill it finally escaleted into 'terrorists acts', done to get attention from the Dutch public for their cause. Of course, most Dutch people didn't even know their history, as our government had been totally ignoring them for 30 years and so did the press.
What I want to make clear is that people, in general, don't become 'terrorists' just because they are evil, mostly there is a reason, and sometimes, the reasons are valid.
The answer was very clear and shameful for us Dutchies. It turned out that our government had betrayed those people and had lured them to Holland under false promises of officially recognizing their state and to support them to get their island back from the Indonesian government who annexated it.
Wow your country has made a mistake, geez I thought it was just the USA that always screws up ? !
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You are sharp as a bowling ball
Wow your country has made a mistake, geez I thought it was just the USA that always screws up ? !
Linda, anyone who knows me also knows that I do not at all agree with my government and I've been critisizing them even more harsh than America, swearing in your own language is always a lot more satifying.
Down here I just pick up the phone and talk to those politicians and tell them how I feel. I do that regulary and I'm pretty sure I'm known as a pain in the ass by those people.
..and they hear me in the USA too. Bill Maher came to Amsterdam to interview me for a documentary last week and he is not the only one, there have been others. (Like the BBC).
Linda, anyone who knows me also knows that I do not at all agree with my government and I've been critisizing them even more harsh than America, swearing in your own language is always a lot more satifying.
Down here I just pick up the phone and talk to those politicians and tell them how I feel. I do that regulary and I'm pretty sure I'm known as a pain in the ass by those people.
Ferre,
I smiled and winked !! It just seems that when I read these forums, it's America, America, America, I don't really see you picking apart other countries to the extent that you are critical of America. I'm sure there must be at least 1 or 2 two other countries that are at least 20 percent the evilness of America.
I too complain, I've voted in every election here since 1978, when I was legally old enough to vote. But you know what, no matter how much I vote it doesn't seem to matter, but I still vote for Local, State and National elections. Even school board issues here in our school district, my Husband and I vote on school budget issues etc.
You can't totally believe that all that is wrong with America is the fault of it's citizens, many vote, but it's also not a majority rule vote. Each state as far as the presidential elections weighs differently, it's based on the electoral college voting system, not actual votes for one candidate or another.
I don't agree with all that goes on in this country, but sometimes it just feels like even when I disagree with something, I'm wrong because my country did this or that, so it's my fault because I'm not on the White House steps protesting (At least that's how you make "ME" feel, I can't speak for others here). We all don't have the time to protest etc, I've called candidates from different parties and voiced my concerns, but to be quite honest, it hasn't changed a thing.
Sometimes, one has enough worries with family, children, jobs, homes, and can only do what they can do to try and change things for the better.
But of course, only my humble opinion.
Have a good day,
Linda
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You are sharp as a bowling ball
Now I know the truth, that even the attacks in the 1990's and before were Georges' Fault too, thanks for clearing that up.
Here's a list for you.
I didn't say the attacks were his fault fault, I said the war was inevitable given who is preseident... that was predicted the day he got elected. A lot of countries have very valid reasons to hate us.. some reasons I don't agree with but at least can understand. I am not insensitive, but I tell you what I give more of a crap about my friend Shawna Foreman who got stabbed while trying to break up a fight between two girls, and later died 2 months later at the ripe age of 13... and I care more about that little boy found running down the interstate because his drugged up mom didn't even know he was gone. Why is 9/11 more tragic then the thousands that starve here in our homeland? Why should I shed a tear for 9/11 victims when I see victims right in my backyard suffering on a daily basis. Where is your tears for them? Boo hoo.. it was terrible, but there are worst things that happen in this country everyday. Do you have any idea how many children are molested on a daily basis... death isn't the worst thing to happen to a person. IPeople are murdered everyday in this country... why aren't you crying everyday them, about every three minutes.
Ferre, that was a very decent post ... about Dutch history, I mean. Well written. And let us know when the Bill Maher piece will air. That's bound to be quite stirring. Was he interviewing you about the disturbing world situation?
Well said, Linda in NY and IlsaScotts, too!
And although I was going to end my thread participation with my previous post, I had an actual thought (!), a metaphor that helps me sleep at night.
America is to the World as Microsoft is to Software:
We (if I may speak in a single, humble voice for the millions of Americans), are the big boys on the block. There, I said it. We engage in a huge amount of activities in virtually every corner of the planet; more than any other political entity. We do a pretty good job, for the most part, however our blunders are on a grand scale. In fact, fairly frequently, these days, we suck pretty bad.
Despite our grandstanding and patting ourselves on the back, there are lots of people who simply don't care for us or for our way of handling things. Even our way of doing business is sometimes looked at as being nearly amoral. But even then, most people can find at least a couple of things about us to like ... a little.
And we thrive ... for now.
As Frank Zappa said, so memorably: "We're only in it for the money."
Microsoft is to Software as America is to the World. IMHO
Bummer about the Iraq escalation plans, not yet approved, by the way. If push came to shove, GWB could ramrod it down our throats, but there is a lot of resistance from both sides of the aisle, so there may be hope, yet.
I didn't say the attacks were his fault fault, I said the war was inevitable given who is preseident... that was predicted the day he got elected. A lot of countries have very valid reasons to hate us.. some reasons I don't agree with but at least can understand. I am not insensitive, but I tell you what I give more of a crap about my friend Shawna Foreman who got stabbed while trying to break up a fight between two girls, and later died 2 months later at the ripe age of 13... and I care more about that little boy found running down the interstate because his drugged up mom didn't even know he was gone. Why is 9/11 more tragic then the thousands that starve here in our homeland? Why should I shed a tear for 9/11 victims when I see victims right in my backyard suffering on a daily basis. Where is your tears for them? Boo hoo.. it was terrible, but there are worst things that happen in this country everyday. Do you have any idea how many children are molested on a daily basis... death isn't the worst thing to happen to a person. IPeople are murdered everyday in this country... why aren't you crying everyday them, about every three minutes.
Hmm, how do you know I don't cry. I used to work on a city ambulance and saw alot of tragedies, and how do you know I wasn't affected, I heard people crying all the time and with very good reason when I worked for 911 too ??
No one said 9/11 was more tragic, but it doesnt mean it wasn't a terrible event. I have friends who did suffer at the hands of molesters, and they were upset by 9/11. I have a neighbor who was shot, and his biggest complain was when the ambulance arrived I wasn't on it. I had a neighbor who Overdosed on crack, guess what NO BOO HOO THERE - Tough Crap, he was dealing drug too and hurting others.
When I was a police Dispatcher, I had tragedies every night I worked, My mother and father and father in law are dead and 3 miscarriages in a row, those are tragedies to me ! Did you cry for my tragedies, I doubt it.
I feel bad for little kids running on the interstate while their parents are drugged up too, why don't the authorities take care of that, better yet, since it effects you so deeply, why don't you take them in and make sure they are in a safer situation. You see I can only do so much. But bitching doesn't make it better, and making a point of how other people feel when you don't know how they feel doesn't help either. You see you said you didn't really care, I NEVER said I didn't care about the other bad things that happen on a daily basis in this country.
I'm glad you told me people are murdered everyday in this country, the first year I was a 911 dispatcher we had a record that still stands for the most homicides in the city, and 17 years later it still stands, I thought it was a fluke, I'm glad you cleared that up, now I know murders happen everywhere in this country.
I've seen, heard, and been around enough to know better, so you're preaching to the wrong person about tragedies in this country.
You have a good day and maybe tomorrow the world will be a nicer place, but I doubt it.
Linda
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You are sharp as a bowling ball
Thanks for proving my point... of course I don't cry over the tragic events in your life.. why would I. If 9/11 effected you personally.. you have a reason. I don't. And I am not insensitive because I don't care about 9/11. I would be insensitive if I didn't care that one of my friends of 14 years just killed him self this year. I wouldn't call you names if you didn't give a crap if he died. Why would you, you don't know him. I care about the things I am involved with or connected to. But I guess im not sensitive enough if I don't cry or concern myself with every tragic event that happens in this world.
