Not so fast, Christian soldiers

Ferre · 08-26-2007, 12:53 PM

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/...,4674900.story

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Last week, after an investigation spurred by the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, the Pentagon abruptly announced that it would not be delivering "freedom packages" to our soldiers in Iraq, as it had originally intended.

What were the packages to contain? Not body armor or home-baked cookies. Rather, they held Bibles, proselytizing material in English and Arabic and the apocalyptic computer game "Left Behind: Eternal Forces" (derived from the series of post-Rapture novels), in which "soldiers for Christ" hunt down enemies who look suspiciously like U.N. peacekeepers.

The packages were put together by a fundamentalist Christian ministry called Operation Straight Up, or OSU. Headed by former kickboxer Jonathan Spinks, OSU is an official member of the Defense Department's "America Supports You" program. The group has staged a number of Christian-themed shows at military bases, featuring athletes, strongmen and actor-turned-evangelist Stephen Baldwin. But thanks in part to the support of the Pentagon, Operation Straight Up has now begun focusing on Iraq, where, according to its website (on pages taken down last week), it planned an entertainment tour called the "Military Crusade."

Apparently the wonks at the Pentagon forgot that Muslims tend to bristle at the word "crusade" and thought that what the Iraq war lacked was a dose of end-times theology.

In the end, the Defense Department realized the folly of participating in any Operation Straight Up crusade. But the episode is just another example of increasingly disturbing, and indeed unconstitutional, relationships being forged between the U.S. military and private evangelical groups.

zibblu · 08-27-2007, 12:14 AM

The idea of "Christian Soldiers" is pretty disturbing. It amazes me how far out of touch with most modern Christians are with the original ideals of the Jesus Christ character.

**John Scott** · 08-27-2007, 04:11 AM

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Originally Posted by zibblu

The idea of "Christian Soldiers" is pretty disturbing. It amazes me how far out of touch with most modern Christians are with the original ideals of the Jesus Christ character.

Most modern Christians? Where do you get that? What numbers do you have to support the statement that "most" are as you say? What credentials do you have? Don't just come in here and drop some nonsense statement and run - back it up.

And as for the military delivering packages for extremely small, extremely vocal special interest groups, that's nothing new. They do it for several groups, when they should do it for none.

Ferre · 08-27-2007, 06:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Scott

And as for the military delivering packages for extremely small, extremely vocal special interest groups, that's nothing new. They do it for several groups, when they should do it for none.

Well, those packages were not meant for a selective group John, but for all the troops. It was a selective and extremely vocal group which influenced it though, but I really wonder how small that group is considering they are the only group which is embedded in the US army in such an extent. You don't find pagan or other groups embedded for example.

**John Scott** · 08-27-2007, 07:05 AM

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Originally Posted by Ferre

Well, those packages were not meant for a selective group John, but for all the troops.

Um, your point? What do you think? You suppose the other special interest packages were just for a select few? Why would you assume that? Why? To waste my time?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ferre

It was a selective and extremely vocal group which influenced it though

As are the Left Wing propaganda groups that also prepare propaganda packages for troops.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ferre

considering they are the only group which is embedded in the US army in such an extent. You don't find pagan or other groups embedded for example.

You want to back up these statements with evidence, or you just farting Left Wing propaganda?

zibblu · 08-27-2007, 09:20 AM

I should have clarified and said I'm talking about American Christians, I don't know for sure if this is the case in other parts of the world.

In America there is a large group of Americans that consider themselves "Christian Fundamentalists" and these folks are the base of the Pro War/Anti Poor Republican (You can't get any less like Jesus Christ than that) ... Certainly there are some Christians who are not of this type (I know some) so the word "most" maybe incorrect. But certainly a large percentage. And sadly a very vocal and influential percentage. They are the reason we are in Iraq right now (without them Bush never would have been elected.)

**John Scott** · 08-27-2007, 03:27 PM

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Anti Poor Republican

Anti Poor? Where do you get this bullshit? Where? You think that because they are oppose rabid socialism - which it a cancer on society - that they are anti-poor? Seriously, that's just stupid. When you tell a group of people that they are losers and should give up and just cash their welfare checks, that's anti-poor. Telling them to provide for themselves is not anti-poor.

Ferre · 08-27-2007, 03:49 PM

True that, republican conservatives love the poor, that's why they create laws which create more of those poor people.

MakeYourFirst$$$ · 08-27-2007, 04:45 PM

What do you mean by that?

**South** · 08-27-2007, 04:59 PM

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Originally Posted by MakeYourFirst$$$

What do you mean by that?

Most liberals tend to disagree with the conservative stance that people should be free to determine their own direction / level of wealth / occupation / lifestyles and opt to support a system where the government taxes those who have into oblivion and "balance" (see: government control) the wealth through socialist welfare programs (which have such a great success track record).

There's a pretty good explanation of Democrat social policy here.

Ferre · 08-27-2007, 06:22 PM

Ah, we are now resorting to equalize Stalinism with democratic socialism (which is the system actually working in the Netherlands).

Smart thinking South. You must have been a real good student, it shows.

**South** · 08-27-2007, 06:42 PM

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Originally Posted by Ferre

Ah, we are now resorting to equalize Stalinism with democratic socialism (which is the system actually working in the Netherlands).

Smart thinking South. You must have been a real good student, it shows.

Yep. I'm equating socialism to socialism. Tagging feel good words on the front of it doesn't change what it is. Glad you enjoy it, though.

**John Scott** · 08-27-2007, 08:15 PM

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Originally Posted by South

Yep. I'm equating socialism to socialism. Tagging feel good words on the front of it doesn't change what it is. Glad you enjoy it, though.

*Greened*

Ferre · 08-28-2007, 01:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by South

Yep. I'm equating socialism to socialism. Tagging feel good words on the front of it doesn't change what it is. Glad you enjoy it, though.

No, you didn't, you equated DEMOCRATIC socialism with STALINISM.

Again, it shows your poor level of intelligence and also your poor level of understanding the difference between a democratic system with socialist influences, like we have in the Netherlands, with Stalinism, which is a totalitarian communinist system with no democratic grounds whatsoever.

Also, it is displaying poor knowledge of political systems to even equate socialism with communism.

To help you out, here's a summary of the differences, written in language that even you and John can understand (Let us hope)

http://www.ee.bilkent.edu.tr/~ge301/polideologies.txt

Quote:

INTRODUCTION: A TOOL KIT FOR DISCUSSION
Terms like right and left, liberal and conservative, socialist,
communist, anarchist, etc. are used frequently in political discussions.
But people frequently misunderstand or confuse the actual political
ideologies that these terms refer to. We don't all have degrees in
political science, and such terms are often loaded with assumptions that more accurately reflect the political leanings of the person using them than the ideologies themselves.

**John Scott** · 08-28-2007, 01:27 AM

Ferre, you seem to be dense. Can you not see that socialism sacrifices individual rights for the perceived "collective good"?

Yes, you can see that, or no, you are too dense - pick one.

Ferre · 08-28-2007, 02:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Scott

Ferre, you seem to be dense. Can you not see that socialism sacrifices individual rights for the perceived "collective good"?

Yes, you can see that, or no, you are too dense - pick one.

A democracy actually does the same thing John. wake up please, South equated DEMOCRATIC socialism with STALINISM.

And are you ignoring things like Patriot act, domestic spying etc,.. all for the perceived "collective good"?

Yes, you can see that, or no, you are too dense - pick one.

**John Scott** · 08-28-2007, 02:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ferre

A democracy actually does the same thing John. wake up please, South equated DEMOCRATIC socialism with STALINISM.

And are you ignoring things like Patriot act, domestic spying etc,.. all for the perceived "collective good"?

Yes, you can see that, or no, you are too dense - pick one.