Nasa spending on outer space...what about Earth ???

[John Scott]

Originally Posted by Jeffro2pt0

All of these problems will be solved in 2012 when the world ends

2012 is a bit too near. I think 2070 is more believable.

[John Scott]

Originally Posted by StrongInTheArm

The apportioning of finite resources is always going to be arguable, someone will always make a case for a more deserving cause. Of course I would like all deserving cases to be financed fully, but reality says that is not possible.

But NASA doesn't even pretend to be able to deal with the problem. There are observatories that are better equipped to tell us when we're in trouble than NASA.

[robert s.]

Originally Posted by Jeffro2pt0

All of these problems will be solved in 2012 when the world ends

to be precise:

21. December 2012 according to the Maya-Calendar

[John Scott]

Couldn't we postpone it till the 26th so we can enjoy Christmas?

[StrongInTheArm]

Originally Posted by John Scott

But NASA doesn't even pretend to be able to deal with the problem. There are observatories that are better equipped to tell us when we're in trouble than NASA.

Yes of course. The discussion has shifted a little to one corner. NASA is a multi-headed dragon that feeds on money. But it has a large part to play as representative of the US in the International community. This 'asteroid problem' is global and should be addressed as such.

As to 'when we are in trouble', we can't wait until then to do the fundamental research, we might not have the time. Before we can formulate a course of action we have to understand the problem, that means research.

There are a number of options if we were faced with such a problem. Which is likely to work is unknown at this stage. Japan and Europe have launched missions to do some of the investigations necessary. I believe NASA has its own mission planned. Britain started its own survey of the sky for objects on a possible collision course with Earth.

The problem with fundamental research is, you do not know how useful it may be in the future. Take ITER for example (Nothing to do with NASA btw), billions being spent by Europe, the US, Japan, China, India, South Korea and Russia. If it works it could solve our energy needs and our reliance on fossil fuels. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITER

Sometimes the rewards are such that we have to bite the bullet and make the uncertain investments.

[robert s.]

Originally Posted by John Scott

Couldn't we postpone it till the 26th so we can enjoy Christmas?

hey, i personally hope that the calendar is completely wrong - i would not be happy, just with an additional christmas.....

but the bigger chance is anyway that the scientist screwed up, when they "translated" the calendar!

[robert s.]

Originally Posted by StrongInTheArm

Yes of course. The discussion has shifted a little to one corner. NASA is a multi-headed dragon that feeds on money. But it has a large part to play as representative of the US in the International community. This 'asteroid problem' is global and should be addressed as such.

As to 'when we are in trouble', we can't wait until then to do the fundamental research, we might not have the time. Before we can formulate a course of action we have to understand the problem, that means research.

There are a number of options if we were faced with such a problem. Which is likely to work is unknown at this stage. Japan and Europe have launched missions to do some of the investigations necessary. I believe NASA has its own mission planned. Britain started its own survey of the sky for objects on a possible collision course with Earth.

The problem with fundamental research is, you do not know how useful it may be in the future. Take ITER for example (Nothing to do with NASA btw), billions being spent by Europe, the US, Japan, China, India, South Korea and Russia. If it works it could solve our energy needs and our reliance on fossil fuels. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITER

Sometimes the rewards are such that we have to bite the bullet and make the uncertain investments.

i mostly agree with you - i also believe that institutions like nasa or esa have to exist, to do research and think about new ways, new means.... i see nasa and esa more as "thinktanks" who try to do "things out of the box"....

but what i do not believe is that nasa or esa or anybody will have an influence whatsoever, when an asteroid or a comet is coming. NOTHING and NOBODY will prevent that we get hit by the thing, once it is approaching. if an asteroid, as big as the "dinosaur-killer" or even bigger, is coming - we are screwed! the force, the energy of such a thing is WAY out of our scales, way beyond what we can even understand. nasa will only be able, to tell us in advance that we are screwed.........and i dont know, if that is such a good thing.

[John Scott]

if an asteroid, as big as the "dinosaur-killer" or even bigger, is coming - we are screwed!

You obviously never saw the movie Armageddon.

[robert s.]

Originally Posted by John Scott

You obviously never saw the movie Armageddon.

saw the movie - but lets face it:
brucie gets now a little bit old for saving us!

[StrongInTheArm]

Originally Posted by robert s.

but what i do not believe is that nasa or esa or anybody will have an influence whatsoever, when an asteroid or a comet is coming. NOTHING and NOBODY will prevent that we get hit by the thing, once it is approaching. if an asteroid, as big as the "dinosaur-killer" or even bigger, is coming - we are screwed! the force, the energy of such a thing is WAY out of our scales, way beyond what we can even understand. nasa will only be able, to tell us in advance that we are screwed.........and i dont know, if that is such a good thing.

Defeatist!

It is conceivable that if we spot such an object in time, to deflect its trajectory sufficiently. The further away it is the less the deflection has to be, which equates to small amounts of energy expenditure to do the job. The trick is to spot these objects in time, something we are not good at presently.

I wouldn't put all your faith in calendars if I were you, the monk who created the Gregorian calender that our civilisation ticks to presently, forgot the year zero and started from year 1.

(btw I would quite like to know if I'm about to be ... The anticipation is half the fun.)

[robert s.]

is defeatist another word for realist?

joking aside:
yes you are right - IF we would know soon enough of an asteroid which will hit earth, it would be enough to correct the path just minimal and it would miss earth.
BUT:
lets look at these "minimal" dimensions...... even for the relatively small "apophis" (45.ooo.ooo tons and about 350 m wide) we would need to know 7(seven!) years in advance to have a slight chance, to correct the path enough, to make him miss earth. and for this we would need an effort of the whole planet, all scientists and all military pulling on one string and organise somehow (we do not know yet how!!) to change the course of "apophis".

now:
the thingy which hit earth and finished with the dinosaurs - a "little" bit bigger..... estimation today is 2.250.000.000 tons and 15 km wide......if one of them is coming our way, we are screwed - thats a fact. and even if we would have the technology in lets say 20 years, we would have to know today, that this thing is coming.....and, obviously, we DONT!

the problem is that an asteroid of 2 billion tons is not much more than a very small needle in the biggest f*****g hay-stack you can imagine. on top of it is a black needle in a black hay-stack.....

and on top of it: on the astronomical scale - even the "dinosaur-killer" is considered as "small". there are things out there with 50 billion tons and they are travelling at a speed of 20km/s, about 70.000 km/h. imagine one of them coming our way...........

[StrongInTheArm]

Realistically you are a defeatist.

The current research is trying to find if and how we could deflect such a thing. Much effort has gone into determining the composition of asteroids and until we can talk about the different types we can't meaningfully discuss how to deflect them. In fact it is possible to make the situation worst.

Given enough warning and enough effort we could plan against a large asteroid. As you say it would take a tremendous effort but I think it is one that is likely to bring us together.

It is possible and NASA has its part to play in developing the technology and expertise to do it. But there is no point in leaving it until the last minute to obtain this knowledge and do the thinking that will allow us to tackle such a problem.

[robert s.]

Originally Posted by StrongInTheArm

Realistically you are a defeatist.

The current research is trying to find if and how we could deflect such a thing. Much effort has gone into determining the composition of asteroids and until we can talk about the different types we can't meaningfully discuss how to deflect them. In fact it is possible to make the situation worst.

Given enough warning and enough effort we could plan against a large asteroid. As you say it would take a tremendous effort but I think it is one that is likely to bring us together.

It is possible and NASA has its part to play in developing the technology and expertise to do it. But there is no point in leaving it until the last minute to obtain this knowledge and do the thinking that will allow us to tackle such a problem.

dont get me wrong...i am 100 % with you, we need nasa, we need research, we need science, but we have to accept that some things are way, way, way beyond our power - even beyond our imagination.

there was a german tv-report not long ago and they said:
if earth would be in the path of an asteroid over 10 billion tons, we could know this 10 years in advance, we could put all(!) nuclear bombs existing on this asteroid (not that we would have the means for that) and we could blow them all at the same time - we only would dig a big hole into the asteroid. we would not even alter the path of the asteroid by one second of a degree, not one iota.
or another example:
all science and research in the world could prevent the outbreak of the volcano under the yellowstone park. if it happens - we are screwed.

but, you are right, research needs to be done,science has to exist. maybe one day we are threatened by a smaller asteroid, maybe the volcano blows in 50.000 years.

i just wanted to say - science and research is not the solution for everything!

[StrongInTheArm]

That sounds like the 'Oh its too hard' argument.

Stone age man perhaps could not envisage strawberry yoghurt and yet go to any supermarket in the Western world and guess what you will find?

You may fail in trying, but who can say what will come out of making the attempt. Many fundamental discoveries have been by accident. You don't do the science you don't learn what there might be to learn.

A scarily large asteroid is coming towards Earth what are you going to do, try or give up? Better to try with a NASA full of knowledge than a bunch of surrender monkeys. Or maybe we should just throw a bunch of bananas at it, you never know the asteroid might slip past us.

[robert s.]

ok you win!
stoneage til strawberry youghurt......roughly 12.000 years.
i cant guarantee that nasa will not find a solution for the big astroid in the next 12.000 years. (although in my lifetime i am quite sure about that!)

[StrongInTheArm]

Originally Posted by robert s.

ok you win!
stoneage til strawberry youghurt......roughly 12.000 years.
i cant guarantee that nasa will not find a solution for the big astroid in the next 12.000 years. (although in my lifetime i am quite sure about that!)

There you go again with the defeatist attitude, I do not accept your surrender

Anti-matter. (I'm trying to be more concise today)