Religion & schools: a moral dilemma

[StrongInTheArm]

This takes a little explaining so bear with me please.

In England we have state schools and religious schools both of which are funded by the state. (There are private schools that are privately funded, but few can afford to send their children to these schools).

For whatever reason, generally speaking, students that go to the religious schools tend to achieve better academically than the state schools. There are a few good state schools but those are usually over subscribed so the chances of getting into them are slim. You are more likely to get lumped into one of the poorly performing schools in your area.

This has lead to parents naturally wanting to get their children into the religious schools in the hope of giving them a better education. Who could blame them. The problem is of course that religious schools get to pick and choose who they allow to attend. Part of the selection criteria is usually that the child and parents go to the local Church and are of the same denomination that runs the school.

This situation has lead to parents who are no more religious than a penguin, to go to church, get their children baptised, and to seemingly play an active role in their religious community simply to qualify for a place in the local religious school.

And there lies my moral dilemma. I am not religious. There are no good state schools in my neighbourhood, but there are good religious schools. I cannot afford to move close to a good state school. I am faced with putting my child through a third class education system or, trying to fake religious devotion in the hope of getting my child into a decent religious school.

One friend has chosen this immoral route, even to the point of getting married, something they have avoided doing for a decade. I don't blame them, in fact I understand and sympathise. What are your thoughts? What would you do in my position?

[Zap]

Depending on how the law is worded, I might be inclined to fight it.
If these schools are funded by public money, then your tax bill should be enough for the admission fee. No?

We in Ontario are going through a related problem.

Since inception, our public schools have been funded by our tax dollars.
Faith based schools were treated as private.
Go ahead and build them if you like, but you'll have to fund them yourselves.

Then, the province I live in decided to fund catholic schools with public money.
Why? I don't know.
But, I'm guessing it's due to pressure from the large number of Catholic schools that had already established themselves.

Well. Years later, guess what?
A much smaller Jewish faith based school system now wants to be funded with public money.
We have an election in a few days. This is an election issue.

Can anyone guess what is going to happen if the Jewish faith based schools get their wish?
Hint: We also have Muslim schools, Sikh schools, schools that specialize in just about every language (Chinese, Japanese, Spanish, Italian, Russian, Etc.)

Follow the trend to it's logical conclusion and the prospects are scary.
Total segregation of the population with a class system thrown in for good measure.

[John Scott]

Total segregation of the population with a class system thrown in for good measure.

If they are tax payers, why not pay for their education with tax money? If they at least meet a standard set by the gov't.

We also have Muslim schools, Sikh schools, schools that specialize in just about every language

Are non-English speakers not paying taxes and not entitled to a gov't funded education?

[Zap]

Of course members of these groups pay taxes. And, I don't have a problem with them attending schools.

What I do have a problem with is being told that, even though my money has funded a particular school, my child can not go there because they are not Catholic, or because they are not Muslim or because they are not Jewish or whatever.

If you want public money to fund your school, then everyone in the public has the right to use that school. Period. No exceptions.

[G10]

Schools should always be mixed as otherwise it is going to cause an us-and-them situation.

My friend is a teacher in the UK at a predominantly Asian school and she is amazed at what a lot of these children are taught by their parents about other people/other faiths and the thing is, staying with just their own, they will never get a chance to find out for themselves but just go on what they hear.

As Zap said about public schools, everyone should be able to use it, no matter.

[John Scott]

Originally Posted by Zap

Of course members of these groups pay taxes. And, I don't have a problem with them attending schools.

What I do have a problem with is being told that, even though my money has funded a particular school, my child can not go there because they are not Catholic, or because they are not Muslim or because they are not Jewish or whatever.

If you want public money to fund your school, then everyone in the public has the right to use that school. Period. No exceptions.

I have never heard of a school refusing a child because of that child's beliefs. Even in the US, where Christian schools are not funded by gov't money, they do not require the child to believe anything. I went to several Christian schools, and recall some several faiths being represented. The only requirement was good grades prior to admission.

Do you have a link that shows a particular gov't funded school rejecting applicants on basis of their religious beliefs?

And, since it's their money (as far as they pay taxes) to begin with, I think they should be able to set their admission requirements with a degree of freedom. The same degree of freedom that they take when they put their hands in the taxpayers pockets.

[G10]

I was baptized as a Catholic and when I left went to primary, my friend could not get in because he was another faith.

Seriously, they even had a priest at the school that went round to chat with his mother about stuff.

We are talking about 30 years ago here and the UK, not the US but I have seen it happen.

[John Scott]

I was baptized as a Catholic and when I left went to primary, my friend could not get in because he was another faith.

Amazing. I know that most Buddhist schools don't require any type of faith in Japan. Most kids go just for the education, and some even openly mock the faith. My first wife went to Catholic schools, and never once even leaned toward believe.

Was that school publicly funded?

[Atom]

Convert, my son.

[G10]

Yes, would you believe.

I would never have gone to a private school as a kid as my family couldn't afford it.

[G10]

Originally Posted by Atom

Convert, my son.

lol!

You must have been that priest as that was the basic idea behind why he went to see them

[Atom]

I will pray for you, Sita.

[Atom]

ok I'll stop

sorry

[Zap]

Currently, my province funds public (non-religious) schools and Catholic schools.
My sister wanted to send her daughter to a Catholic school in her area.
Her daughter had to become Catholic to do this.
The law is ambiguous towards this, as we have, both, Catholic schools that are funded with public money and Catholic schools that aren't funded with public money.
Do I have a link? No. I have second hand experience.

The problem is that public money should pay for public things that the entire public can enjoy.

A Catholic police officer doesn't stop to ask the religion of the victim before they protect them.
A Catholic fire fighter doesn't check to see if a home is owned by catholics before they open up the hose on it.
A Catholic librarian doesn't lend books out to catholics only.
Why should a Catholic principal be allowed to tell a non-catholic student that they can't be taught in that public building by teachers paid by public money?

And, that's only part of the story. As G10 has mentioned, segregation is the end result of this.
My province is already in hot water with the UN over funding Catholic schools, while not funding other faith based school systems.
Where does it end?
I'll tell you.
It ends with a public education system that is so fragmented in their funding formula that very few students get the decent education they deserve because instead of one teacher, teaching 30 kids in a single classroom, those same 30 kids will have to be taught in 7 schools by 7 teachers. They will have very limited exposure to each other, which is one of the things that makes this country great.
My daughter is one of about 4 or 5 "white kids" in a class of about 30.
She has exposure to kids from all different backgrounds, religions, belief systems.
She will learn that there is no major difference between her and someone who happens to be muslim or greek or jewish or french or whatever.
Start funding separate schools with public money and all of that goes away.

[Zap]

It also doesn't address the problem of the "posers", people who pose as Catholic so they can attend Catholic schools.
They have to study and do well in a Catholic based religion education in order to make it through a publicly funded school.

Kids should not deciding what (if any) religion to follow until they are old enough to make that choice for themselves.
In other words, I don't want my four year old being told that she will burn in hell for eternity because she lied about spilling her juice box on the gymnasium floor.
That's the kind of crap she'll have to endure until she's old enough to decide for herself whether or not it's actually a line of crap, just to get an education in a separate school funded with my money.

[John Scott]

My daughter is one of about 4 or 5 "white kids" in a class of about 30.
She has exposure to kids from all different backgrounds, religions, belief systems.
She will learn that there is no major difference between her and someone who happens to be muslim or greek or jewish or french or whatever.
Start funding separate schools with public money and all of that goes away.

I went to Christian school with Danish, German, English, Pakistani, Japanese, Chinese, Korean, etc. Probably more mixed than most schools.

Quality schools aim to get a good diversity, and parents aim to put their kids in quality schools.

If you want to deny public funding to private schools, then I think at least those parents should get a tax refund. It's their tax money that is being denied them.

The problem is that public money should pay for public things that the entire public can enjoy.

Public money often funds a service only a few can enjoy. Abortions should not be publicly funded because I, as a man, can not get one? Public money funding gay art, which I, as a raving heterosexual, cannot enjoy. Public money from throughout the state of Washington funded the building of Safeco Field, even though Western Washingtonians are the ones who have access to it. Public funds support most state universities, which I cannot go to.

If you want to deny public funding, I'd say fine, but only as long as you agree to a tax rebate to the parents of those kids whose education is not being funded by their hard earned dollars.

[Atom]

Man you guys are making way too much sense for me. I'm going outside and work a few hours.