The Scary Left

[Rankenstein]

Perhaps I phrased myself badly...I'm saying the Loony Left are acting in reaction to the loony antics of religious people. It's not a question of the Loony Left thinking 'What lunacy and mischief can I get up to today?' It's a question of them looking at the behaviour of religious loonies, and there are religious loonies in every single religion, and concluding 'religion is bad, how can we wipe it out?'

So, it's a reaction to a whole bunch of religious people of every stripe being hate-filled war-mongering rubbish-spouting idiots, and entirely ignoring the many good people and the many benefits of religion. So if you are scared of the Loony Left, think how scared they must be of religion to be suggesting this. These guys must really hate religion. But why?

Once again. The people suggesting this are idiots. It's a bad idea.

[John Scott]

I'm saying the Loony Left are acting in reaction to the loony antics of religious people.

I don't think so. Naw, the Loony Left (the only left) will always be loony. Religious people will go about their business, and the loony Left will keep thinking up ways to better invade the lives of others and make decisions for them.

Classic example here. When I was a kid, the example given in school of totalitarianism and forcing personal values on others was this: Jim, Bill and Bob live on Oak Street. Jim and Bill have traditional color houses. Bob recently painted his house purple. (!!)

Jim and Bill create a bill to limit house colors to traditional colors, the bill passes, and Bob is forced to repaint his house.

This was given as an example off "democracy gone awry". You'll however recognize it as modern day Liberalism, and note that Liberals in thousands of locations across America have had laws passed that not only regulate the color you can paint your house, but also penalize for "unsightly" things, such as having an broken down car on your property.

[Rankenstein]

I don't think it's just Liberals that do that, John. It's small-minded people in general.

[John Scott]

Originally Posted by Rankenstein

I don't think it's just Liberals that do that, John. It's small-minded people in general.

Yes, but Liberal values support it. Conservative values oppose it.

Conservative: Laissez-faire, let people make their own mistakes.

Liberal: We know best, and we must help people to make the right decision through legislation. Smoking, let's make laws against it. Transportation, let's encourage it by increasing gas taxes. House color, people can't choose; we'll choose for them. Strip clubs, these are establishments that abuse women, make a mockery of feminist ideas, and need to be shut down.

Values being forced on others is typically a socialist (Liberal Democrat) trait.

There are of course exceptions. Like when insane Conservatives, for some inexplicable reason, move to ban gay marriage.

I guess the Liberal fad of forcing one's values on others is so popular that some Conservatives have caught the virus. Sickening, and it makes you wonder what all those patriots died for in the American Revolutionary War. It surely wasn't liberty.

[Rankenstein]

Originally Posted by John Scott

Values being forced on others is typically a socialist (Liberal Democrat) trait.

There are of course exceptions. Like when insane Conservatives, for some inexplicable reason, move to ban gay marriage.

It's also a religious trait to impose values on others - you started that thread on the Islam thing. But you're right of course that Conservatives are much less interfering, government-wise. I'm fairly Conservative - when I was in my teens I was a Thatcher poster-boy. But the free market has been disastrous for public transport in the UK for example, so I came to realise that having nationalised transport is a good thing. Thatcher's privatisation of transport let in precisely the sort of greedy hogs whose nose you don't want in the trough. So I suppose you'd call me a conservative realist.

[John Scott]

It's also a religious trait to impose values on others

Horse pucky.

I see all this hatred in the world, aimed at smearing religious people, and you just got to laugh.

Imposing values on others is a trait of intolerance. Whether that intolerance be atheist, Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, Socialist, Communist, Islamic, or vegetarian.

Trying to smear all religious people with the paint of intolerance is a falsehood. It becomes a falsehood the minute one religious person has shown respect for the beliefs of others. And there are millions of religious people who, even when given the chance, choose to not force their beliefs on others. Of course, the Dawkins people will get some gullible people to believe that there's a Christian under every bed, just waiting to pounce, but that's inevitable. You'll always have those Dawkins type people who want to stir hatred. The thing to do is be intelligent, and not stereotype people.

[Ferre]

I wonder what's wrong with parents letting their children decide for themselves what religion they want to join, or not, when they are old enough to make a rational decision on this issue. That's what my parents did and I'm still thankful for that.

People are never too old to get baptised for example, but I wouldn't call it a rational decision from a baby to get baptised. In a way, people who baptise their babies are forcing a religion upon that child without the child's consent. What's the problem with letting that child decide for themselves whether they want that or not when they are old enough?

I'm not saying it is child abuse, but it certainly doesn't show much confident in their own children for them to do it when they can make the choise themselves when they are older.

[John Scott]

I wonder what's wrong with parents letting their children decide for themselves what religion they want to join

Who said there was anything wrong with letting children decide for themselves? I read the thread, reread it, and can't find a single damn post where somebody is saying that parents should be prevented from letting their children decide??!

What's the problem with letting that child decide for themselves whether they want that or not?

Did somebody say there was a problem with letting children decide for themselves?

[Rankenstein]

Originally Posted by John Scott

Horse pucky.

I see all this hatred in the world, aimed at smearing religious people, and you just got to laugh.

Imposing values on others is a trait of intolerance. Whether that intolerance be atheist, Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, Socialist, Communist, Islamic, or vegetarian.

Trying to smear all religious people with the paint of intolerance is a falsehood. It becomes a falsehood the minute one religious person has shown respect for the beliefs of others. And there are millions of religious people who, even when given the chance, choose to not force their beliefs on others. Of course, the Dawkins people will get some gullible people to believe that there's a Christian under every bed, just waiting to pounce, but that's inevitable. You'll always have those Dawkins type people who want to stir hatred. The thing to do is be intelligent, and not stereotype people.

OK, I can't argue with that. But take your post, change the word 'religious' in your post for 'liberal' and it's equally true, no?

[John Scott]

Originally Posted by Rankenstein

OK, I can't argue with that. But take your post, change the word 'religious' in your post for 'liberal' and it's equally true, no?

How so? Some religious people are intolerant. Some aren't. It isn't a requirement of religion to be intolerant.

It is, however, a requirement of Liberalism to be intolerant. If you don't support the Liberal agenda of behavior modification legislation, you aren't a Liberal, are you?

[Ferre]

Originally Posted by John Scott

Who said there was anything wrong with letting children decide for themselves? I read the thread, reread it, and can't find a single damn post where somebody is saying that parents should be prevented from letting their children decide??!


Did somebody say there was a problem with letting children decide for themselves?

I never said that anyone said it's a problem or that anyone said it was wrong in this tread John, but I wondered...

If it's not a problem, can you answer why most religious folks don't give their children this opportunity? Is it lack of faith that their children will decide to join their own religion? Or is it just an old habit which is promoted by organised religion in the past to secure them of new members? Or does it have another reason?

[John Scott]

If it's not a problem, can you answer why most religious folks don't give their children this opportunity?

LOL!!! Most do. At least, in Christianity they do. I was reading the Book of Mormon when I was kid, and Soka holy books too.

Your stereotyping and bigotry is, well, reminiscent of the Dark Ages.

[Rankenstein]

According to Wikipedia (I just looked it up) individual liberty is the most important goal of Liberalism. However Liberalism seems to require a raft of laws to protect individual liberty. Strange dichotomy there.

Anyway, I'm tired and going home, but I've enjoyed the debate.

[John Scott]

Originally Posted by Rankenstein

According to Wikipedia (I just looked it up) individual liberty is the most important goal of Liberalism. However Liberalism seems to require a raft of laws to protect individual liberty. Strange dichotomy there.

Individual liberty is preventing smoking?

Individual liberty legislating what color you can paint your house or what you can put in your front yard? LOL!

Individual liberty is prohibiting and closing down existing strip clubs and putting their operators in jail?

Individual liberty is legislating that intimidation is equal to assault and putting people in prison for it?

Insane logic there.

Seriously.

"If the personal freedoms guaranteed by the Constitution inhibit the government's ability to govern the people, we should look to limit those guarantees." -- President Bill Clinton

"The purpose of government is to rein in the rights of the people" -- Bill Clinton

"We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans" -- Bill Clinton

[Ferre]

Originally Posted by John Scott

LOL!!! Most do. At least, in Christianity they do. I was reading the Book of Mormon when I was kid, and Soka holy books too.

Your stereotyping and bigotry is, well, reminiscent of the Dark Ages.

It's not stereotyping or bigotry John, when you look at Muslims, Jews, christians and most of their affiliated sects you will find that indeed, most (NOT ALL, but definitely most) of them teach their children their own doctrines and babtise them before those children can make this decision themselves when they are older. In fact, muslims don't act very friendly towards those who decide otherwise, even when it are their own children.

I'm not talking about exceptions here and I'm also not talking about one particular religion, I don't even judge it, I just wonder why.

Clearly you don't have an answer, the sole fact that you personally could read whatever you wanted as a child and could join any religion of your choice doesn't make it reality for the majority of children from the religions I mentioned above. And may I ask, if you are, how old where you when you were baptised?

[John Scott]

It's not stereotyping or bigotry John, when you look at Muslims, Jews, christians and most of their affiliated sects you will find that indeed, most (NOT ALL, but definitely most) of them teach their children their own doctrines and babtise them before those children can make this decision themselves when they are older.

Yes, when you say "most" you are being a splendid bigot. The opposite of bigotry and stereotyping is looking at people as individuals who make individual choices.

Just as you teach your children your values along with the value to think and make decisions for themselves, likewise religious people teach their children values and teach them to make decisions for themselves.

the sole fact that you personally could read whatever you wanted as a child and could join any religion of your choice doesn't make it reality for the majority of children from the religions I mentioned above

Certainly there are some religions that discourage freedom of choice where religion is concerned. I recall a young girl being stoned to death in some Islamic country for fraternizing with a boy of a different sect.

Does that mean that American Christians, Muslims, etc, are preventing or even discouraging their children from making their own decisions? No. Nonsense. The suggestion could only come from a raving lunatic in Amsterdam, a conspiracy theory fanatic who is determined to spread his lunacy and bigotry.