Do you think we are evolving?

[Atom]

BTW, I don't believe a lot of what the bible says, despite what it says to the contrary that every word is inspired by God, however, that is where the story originates that I choose to believe.

[Atom]

Ok it seems I didn't word that right. Holy hell. Ok to hell with it. You know what I mean maybe. Anyway..

ok I forgot what I was going to add..

I'll have a Sun Drop .. see if that helps.

[Atom]

But you can't pick and choose what you want to believe from the bible!

um..

yes I can.


Ok BOT:

What was the question? Or.. maybe I already answered it. Maybe there was more than one. These are all questions we must ask ourselves.

[Atom]

Ok sorry..

I'll say 9/10.

[kristeejo]

based on all that - I agree that we're DEevolving. ; )

[Atom]

You know what DEVO stands for right? D evolution.

[kristeejo]

whippin' it good?

[Atom]

How dare you question me in such a manner.

Their first album is the best.

Yes 9/10. I think we're close to the limit.

[Atom]

It's rather unfortunate for us I think, this nuclear discovery.

[John Scott]

Originally Posted by Zap

There's still a larger portion of the population that has to watch what they say and do, including some of these "democracies".

Including Canada. Democracy and freedom of speech are two different things. And the question is devolving or evolving. When humanity is moving in the right direction, that has to be seen in positive light by intelligent people.

Originally Posted by Zap

True enough. This is awesome. And we need it too, considering how much we seem to employ violence to solve our problems.

Again, cup half empty. Violence will always be with us, but the reduction of violence is a thousandfold, and is is almost universally reduced, except for a few unstable regions.

Originally Posted by Zap

Who needs diseases to wipe out populations? We seem to do a pretty good job of that ourselves. Pol Pot/Sadam/Milosevic/Hitler

Thank you for making my point. One might argue that an attribute of social evolution is learning from history and implementing safegaurds against repeating those mistakes. The UN and the international community have been doing that, putting international pressure on undemocratic regimes in order to prevent further genocides.

Originally Posted by Zap

Again, true enough, but the people of Africa might say we still have far to go.

I am sure everybody, not just those in Africa, would agree we have far to go. But I am also sure that they would also agree that we have come a very long way, and to suggest we are devolving socially is seriously an untenable position.

Originally Posted by Zap

Many of the rules governing human rights are ignored by even the supposed champion of them, the USA and Guantanamo. If the people of Earth can't depend on the US of A to defend human rights, who can they depend on?

They should depend on themselves to act in a way that puts pressure on governments to honor the rights of man. The US is no role model.

Originally Posted by Zap

It still is a daily fight for survival for millions, while millions more have way more than they will ever need. Some of are, indeed, spoiled.

Starting to sound like Marx, no? Maybe we are devolving, if we haven't learned from the Marxist mistakes.

[Zap]

Originally Posted by John Scott

Again, cup half empty. Violence will always be with us...

"Violence will always be with us" sounds a little half empty to me too.

John, I think you might be under the impression that I think it's all doom and gloom. I don't. I have hope for the future. I just think we've pretty much wasted our talents so far.
We've accomplished some great things. I agree. But we've also squandered a lot.

Here's a useless analogy for you...

Your son's teacher calls you one day and tells you that your son is brilliant. He's a genius. He's taught ants to build hospitals, he's taught gerbils to speak and he's just cured AIDS. The problem, the teacher continues, is that your son isn't really interested in those things. Your son just wants to goof off and eventually wants to become a game show host. Your son erased the formula that cured AIDS before anyone could copy it down. Why? There was no profit in giving it away. And that hospital the ants built, he destroyed it and set fire to the ant colony, killing them all. Oh, and the hamster... he killed that too, for fear of pissing off the guinea pigs.
Something wrong with your son? No. He's doing what makes him happy. That's a good thing to aim for in life and he'll be perfectly happy posing trivia questions to middle America but he could be so much more and you know it.

We're (as a group) pretty remarkable and capable of so many things, but we seem to focus on trivia, while we knock the crap out of each other.

Originally Posted by John Scott

Thank you for making my point. One might argue that an attribute of social evolution is learning from history and implementing safegaurds against repeating those mistakes. The UN and the international community have been doing that, putting international pressure on undemocratic regimes in order to prevent further genocides.

Yes, but as soon as it suits our purpose, we drop (or ignore) that international body like a hot potato. At that point, it becomes just another building in New York.

Originally Posted by John Scott

I am sure everybody, not just those in Africa, would agree we have far to go. But I am also sure that they would also agree that we have come a very long way, and to suggest we are devolving socially is seriously an untenable position.

I'm not saying we're devolving, but the word stagnant comes to mind.

Originally Posted by John Scott

They should depend on themselves to act in a way that puts pressure on governments to honor the rights of man. The US is no role model.

Although there really is no functioning democracy on Earth, the USA and "democracy" have become linked. Like it or lump it, that's the way it is.

[John Scott]

"Violence will always be with us" sounds a little half empty to me too.

Not when it is followed by a statement that points to the decrease is violence.

Originally Posted by Zap

John, I think you might be under the impression that I think it's all doom and gloom.

No, I just think you're riding the human-hater bandwagon. I got that idea from your many statements that seem to be ignorant of the overwhelming progress humanity has made, summed up in your eloquent "In short, we suck!"

Here's a whole list of anti-human quotes. How many would you agree with? 100%?

Your son's teacher calls you one day and tells you that your son is brilliant. He's a genius. He's taught ants to build hospitals, he's taught gerbils to speak and he's just cured AIDS. The problem, the teacher continues, is that your son isn't really interested in those things. Your son just wants to goof off and eventually wants to become a game show host. Your son erased the formula that cured AIDS before anyone could copy it down. Why? There was no profit in giving it away. And that hospital the ants built, he destroyed it and set fire to the ant colony, killing them all. Oh, and the hamster... he killed that too, for fear of pissing off the guinea pigs.
Something wrong with your son? No. He's doing what makes him happy. That's a good things to aim for in life and he'll be perfectly happy posing trivia questions to middle America but he could be so much more and you know it.

I really wouldn't call that descriptive of humanity as a whole. Of course there will always be coke-snorting potheads about, but that's life. There are also millions of humans who work to make the earth a better place, and I would venture a guess that the good will of humans outnumbers the bad will.

Yes, but as soon as it suits our purpose, we drop (or ignore) that international body like a hot potato. At that point, it becomes just another building in New York.

There are still some atrocities about, but compared to those in history, they are minor. The very fact that you are aware of them demonstrates progress. These days, you go out and try to kill a million people, and it'll be on the news that evening and the next day there will be a protest in front of the embassy.

I'm not saying we're devolving, but the word stagnant comes to mind.

In Japan alone, in the past few years, fatal heart attacks in public places have declined by a large number, due to placement of AEDs in all trains, train stations and shopping centers. Seems like a small achievement? I don't think so. It may not end injustice, but the wealth we are creating funds some amazing medical discoveries. Or take the Internet - not just porn - but free information that is educating millions and fueling political change for the better throughout the world.

Did you know that a lot of cancers that were almost 100% synonymous with death, are now treatable to the degree that over half diagnosed will survive?

My half brother had a type of Leukemia, they said ten years ago it would mean death. He recovered. My mother had breast cancer, but they removed it. She'll be ok.

Progress in medicine is happening so fast now it's mind boggling.

[Zap]

Originally Posted by John Scott

No, I just think you're riding the human-hater bandwagon. I got that idea from your many statements that seem to be ignorant of the overwhelming progress humanity has made, summed up in your eloquent "In short, we suck!"

Not riding any bandwagon. I make my own decisions, right or wrong, popular or not.
I honestly feel that we are capable of so much more and I am pissed that we don't apply ourselves nearly enough to get there.

Originally Posted by John Scott

Here's a whole list of anti-human quotes. How many would you agree with? 100%?

You're way off. I counted a total of 8 quotes. I would agree with 2, almost a third but I have a problem with wording on that one.

I can agree with...

Humans have grown like a cancer. We're the biggest blight on the face of the earth.

Characterizing us as cancer was a bit harsh, but, yeah, we grow like a cancer. Cancers grow. We grow. And, we're really the only species that I can think of that can be a blight on the Earth.

Humans are exploiters and destroyers, self-appointed world autocrats around whom the universe seems to revolve.

Not all humans, of course, but some of us, yeah. Some of us live for exploitation and destruction. We do have a center of the universe mentality. You would have to agree with that, no? You can see it in several places all the time. The notion of celebrity is an example where some of us think we're "more" in the center than others.
The one I thought was close, but no cigar on was this one...

Animal liberationists do not separate out the human animal, so there is no rational basis for saying that a human being has special rights. A rat
is a pig is a dog is a boy. They are all mammals.

We covered human rights before. While I believe we are all mammals and deserve respect, a rat, a pig, a dog and a boy are all very different.

And this one...

Torturing a human being is almost always wrong, but it is not absolutely wrong.

...is so unbelieveably far out there, I don't know how anyone could possibly agree with that statement. I can't even imagine circumstances where it would be OK to torture any living thing.

Originally Posted by John Scott

I really wouldn't call that descriptive of humanity as a whole. Of course there will always be coke-snorting potheads about, but that's life. There are also millions of humans who work to make the earth a better place, and I would venture a guess that the good will of humans outnumbers the bad will.

I agree and I would go further and say that I honestly believe in the goodness of people. I believe that most people, given the choice, would choose the forces of good over the forces of evil.
However, the millions you speak of rarely get to be powerful enough to effect any real change in comparison to the dickheads in power positions throughout the world. Politics is a dirty business, filled with greedy, opportunistic types who don't care about anyone but themselves. The cream of the human crop rarely gets the chance to rise to the top.

Originally Posted by John Scott

There are still some atrocities about, but compared to those in history, they are minor. The very fact that you are aware of them demonstrates progress. These days, you go out and try to kill a million people, and it'll be on the news that evening and the next day there will be a protest in front of the embassy.

Yes, but I look to the day when the killings don't ever happen in the first place. It's a long way off and that's discouraging.

Originally Posted by John Scott

In Japan alone, in the past few years, fatal heart attacks in public places have declined by a large number, due to placement of AEDs in all trains, train stations and shopping centers. Seems like a small achievement? I don't think so. It may not end injustice, but the wealth we are creating funds some amazing medical discoveries. Or take the Internet - not just porn - but free information that is educating millions and fueling political change for the better throughout the world.

I totally agree that the Internet is all that and more. It's (IMHO) what's eventually going to be responsible for the freedom of every single human being on the planet. There are still over a billion people who can't access it freely, but I think the floodgates have already been opened.

Originally Posted by John Scott

Did you know that a lot of cancers that were almost 100% synonymous with death, are now treatable to the degree that over half diagnosed will survive? My half brother had a type of Leukemia, they said ten years ago it would mean death. He recovered. My mother had breast cancer, but they removed it. She'll be ok.
Progress in medicine is happening so fast now it's mind boggling.

I don't debate any of that. I agree that cancer is way more treatable than (it seems) ten or fifteen years ago. It's amazing.
Where I think we'll get a huge bang for our buck is in stem cell research. It's too bad that the leader of the US has the power to keep that branch of science in the dark ages, which goes to my point above. There are millions of Americans who would love for that research to move forward and a select few who don't. Guess who wins.
But that science has the potential to do some remarkable things.
Have a bad heart, lung, spinal cord, kidney, arm, eye, eardrum? Don't worry. We can grow you a new one.

The hope for the future is there. I just get pissed when I see total nonsense standing in the way of it.

[Atom]

Originally Posted by Zap

... I can't even imagine circumstances where it would be OK to torture any living thing. ...

Choker chains, electric fences, bathing a cat, etc..

[Atom]

Originally Posted by Zap

... But that science has the potential to do some remarkable things.
Have a bad heart, lung, spinal cord, kidney, arm, eye, eardrum? Don't worry. We can grow you a new one.

The hope for the future is there. I just get pissed when I see total nonsense standing in the way of it.

Do you have an understanding of the worst that could happen, in the future, from stem cell research? I am just curios about that side of the coin as I really don't have a good understanding.