HTML coding and Search Engines..Can you type in white?

1more · 10-30-2006, 12:06 PM

ok..I HOPE this is the right forum for this. It seems like the best suited one..

here's the question..

On a website i am doing, I have some categories to choose from, and they are really noticed by the google/yahoo/etc in searches. However, they don't do an accurate job of portraying what i want my site to show...

so, here what it says right now...

Ford
Chevy
Dodge

and what i want it say is

Ford (and then in white) for sale
Chevy 'for sale'
dodge 'for sale'

now my question is, can i type the 'ford' part in black, then the rest in white, or will the search engines see this and think that i'm beeing tricky? this is in my html coding for what its worth..

thanks guys..

IslaScotts · 10-30-2006, 12:40 PM

well if your background is white and the text is white it could be. But if say you have a blue background with black and white text, you are fine.

1more · 10-30-2006, 12:48 PM

yeah, i should have prefaced this by mentioning the background is white.

the 'hidden' part of the text would be completely relevant to what the users are at my site for, i just don't really want to be too redundant.

StupidScript · 10-30-2006, 12:52 PM

If it's relevant to your visitors, then they need to be able to see it on your pages, and not just in the SE results. If you are just hoping that the SEs will pick up on some text that the visitors cannot see ... that's too tricky. Try to find a way to make the text you want to appear in the SEs also work visibly for your visitors. A simple algorithmic comparison of the page's background color with the text you are trying to "sneak" in will tell them that you are being tricky, and will cause you problems in the engines ... maybe not right away, but sooner or later there will be problems.

1more · 10-30-2006, 12:58 PM

thanks for answering that question..

the prob is that when users click on the 'for sale' table, i want everything to be nicely organised and look like

acura
audi
bmw
etc

instead of

acura for sale
audi for sale
bmw for sale
etc for sale

so, as an other option, can i put say

acura for sale
audi for sale
etc for sale

with a long space inbetween, and have the table window/tab/whatever its called only be like 10 characters long so users don't have to have a 100 character long tab?

vangogh · 10-30-2006, 01:41 PM

I'm wondering why you think the makes without the 'for sale' part are more aligned. It's the makes that have the different number of characters.

You could make another column in your table so you have one column for:

acura
audi
bmw
etc

and then a column right next to it with the words 'for sale' for each. That will align the words 'for sale.

Using hidden text is a very bad idea. You don't want to have search engines and people see different things on the site without a very, very good reason. The white text on a white background is the kind of thing that will get you banned.

Just out of curiosity is the reason you want to add 'for sale' next to each make, because you're trying to increase the keyword density of the words 'for sale'

Keyword density isn't the kind of thing you really need to pay attention to. In fact Google will sooner reward a page that is written naturally than one that has a high keyword density.

If the words are important for the people who visit the site add them, but if it's just for search engines you can leave them out.

One simple thing you could do with your table is have a column with a heading of 'for sale' and then just list the makes below that.

1more · 10-31-2006, 09:56 PM

yes, my reasoning for this is for key word density.

googlesuccess · 11-03-2006, 01:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1more

now my question is, can i type the 'ford' part in black, then the rest in white, or will the search engines see this and think that i'm beeing tricky? this is in my html coding for what its worth..

thanks guys..

There are two ways people write white text on white background and are still not caught for spamming. But please use these techniques at your own risk

First technique is to use a white background image - Search engines can not determine the color of background image so no flags are raised.

Another technique used is to use slightly different shades of the color for background and the text - for example FFFFFF and F7F7F7 are both white for human eyes.

But I think there are other better ways to optimize your keywords.

fermiop · 11-03-2006, 02:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by googlesuccess

Another technique used is to use slightly different shades of the color for background and the text - for example FFFFFF and F7F7F7 are both white for human eyes.

Yeah, you may do it but it seems to me you can be banned because of spam. It's a very tricky method IMHO.

bermuda · 11-03-2006, 03:40 AM

Whatever you do, just make sure bots do not take your website mistaken as using blackhat techniques.

Less optimization and a little hard work on link popularity is better than the opposite.

martyan · 11-03-2006, 04:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vangogh

Using hidden text is a very bad idea. You don't want to have search engines and people see different things on the site without a very, very good reason. The white text on a white background is the kind of thing that will get you banned.

Agree. and 1more why do you think key word density will increase your position? When I was studying the key word density of the competitive sites, I found out that on the first positions there were sites with lower key word density than those second and third places.

A.N.Onym · 11-03-2006, 04:16 AM

If you try to cheat the search engines, sooner or later you'll be caught. If not by the automated algorithm, but by a competing rival.

Find a way to provide value to your visitors by adding the words 'for sale' on your pages. You can use the keyphrase in your page title, meta desciption and tags. A powerful way to get more rankings for the phrase is to get links with the phrase from relevant websites.

You can use subheadings with the 'for sale' phrase as well, as you may be buying autos, too.

Other than that, I'll second vangogh's suggestions.

googlesuccess · 11-03-2006, 04:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.N.Onym

If you try to cheat the search engines, sooner or later you'll be caught. If not by the automated algorithm, but by a competing rival.

Yes, that's why I just told him the tricks - did not recommend them

vangogh · 11-03-2006, 12:22 PM

Tricks or no tricks, keyword density isn't the thing to get a page to rank well. If that's where you're focusing your efforts then you're putting too much time into the wrong things.

1more · 11-03-2006, 02:21 PM

thanks for the input guys.

i should probably rephrase this...

i'm not so much looking for keyword density, as i am looking for keywords period. So far i only have the phrase 'for sale' on my site once.

So my next question is, is that phrase appearing on my page once enough?

thanks guys, great responses so far.

vangogh · 11-07-2006, 04:11 PM

Matt the phrase 'for sale' by itself isn't going to be one you'd want to target. Not in isolation. Let's say you did rank #1 for that phrase. You'd find a lot of people at your site that weren't looking for what you had for sale.

It obviously needs to be used in conjuction with other phrases. It should be thought of as a modifier for other phrases.

If I were targeting it as a modifier I would add it on a page where I was selling something. I would target it on a page that has a button to add a product to a shopping cart or with a link to contact me or something like that. A page as close as possible to being the last page in the buying process.

So maybe that page is selling Honda bikes. My title might be:

Honda Bikes For Sale | 9bikes.com

or even better:

Honda RC51 For Sale | 9bikes.com

I'd have something similar in the h1 heading for the page. I'd also mention the words honda, rc51 and 'for sale' in my page copy, not always in the same order or next to each other, but sometimes in the same order and near each other. I would always have 'for sale' in that order.

I wouldn't worry so much about how many times I mentioned the words on the page other than making sure they were in the page title and page headings. Maybe bold on instance of one and italicize one instance of another.

When I had control over the anchor text in the links pointing to the page I would use:

honda bikes for sale
honda rc51 for sale

and a few other variations of the words.

It could be enough for the phrase to appear once on the page. If you have enough links pointing at the page with various anchor text that has your keywords in it you can rank a page.

As proof go to Google and search for the term 'click here' and count the number of times it appears on the first site in the results. The #1 result should be for a page at Adobe and the tems probably won't be on the page.

1more · 11-09-2006, 08:29 PM

vangogh-

thanks for the time that took to type that. pretty good read.

i'm going to try to incorporate what you said into the site

that said, the site i'm doing is basically JUST a classified site. (not the 9bikes.com one in my sig..)

now here is where i am getting this crazy 'for sale' is important thing from. Do a google search on 'honda accord'

a bunch of fan sites, accord forums, etc pop up.

now do a search on 'accord for sale'

NOW you get the cars.com/autotrader/craigslist etc. That is the market I want to sell to, thus why I tend to over-emphasize the use of 'for sale'

again, having said that, i'm going to be taking your advice and trying afew well placed 'for sale' lines thruought the site.....and i'm gonna stay away from same-color hidden text.

vangogh · 11-13-2006, 03:10 PM

Glad to help. I'm not saying not to use 'for sale,' but you have to remember it's not helpful by itself, only in conjunction with other words. I think it's fine targeting a page for 'accord for sale.' I just wouldn't target a page for 'for sale' by itself.

It's why I added the 'for sale' part in the titles. I understand you want to compete with cars.com/autotrader/craigslist etc., but know that what you do on the page isn't going to get you where they are. Those sites are on the first page, because they have a lot of links pointing to them.

I just typed 'accord for sale' into Google and the top result was for this page on carsearch.com. When I checked the page for the keywords 'for sale' I found 3 occurrences. Once in the page title, once in the breadcrumb navigation, and once on the page above the table. It ranks #1 because of its backlinks.