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  #81  
Old 09-04-2007, 02:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Scott View Post
What is your point? That governments stop abuses? No. That would be a stupid, stupid point to try to make. Especially when we all know that crime occurs in every nation on earth, no matter what the government. So what's the point you want to make?
Now what was your point when you claimed;

"And that is anarchy. No government = abuses occur."

Apparently you also think;

"Government = abuses occur."

And you even find it stupid to think otherwise, now tell me why you believed that Anarchy is so much different in this context when you first stated that when there's "No government = abuses occur" while at the same time believing that it's stupid to think that with government no abuses would occur?
 
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  #82  
Old 09-04-2007, 03:35 AM
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Quote:
Apparently you also think;

"Government = abuses occur."
In the words of a higher intelligence, Duh.

Quote:
now tell me why you believed that Anarchy is so much different in this context when you first stated that when there's "No government = abuses occur"
Also a "duh" level question.

Government = recourse.

No government = no recourse.

Next week, we will discuss why 2 + 2 = 4.
Quote:
As simple as that. Anarchy is not at all pacifist, I would feed you to the dogs before you had the chance to chop anything off and probably my anarchist neighbors would be holding you down while I tear out your heart.
History shows that that isn't the case. You got 10 friends? Fine, I'll bring 20.

The solution? Government.
 
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  #83  
Old 09-04-2007, 06:57 AM
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Originally Posted by John Scott View Post
History shows that that isn't the case. You got 10 friends? Fine, I'll bring 20.

The solution? Government.
Duh.

History shows that anarchy has worked for centuries, the ancient tribal system is an anarchist system, still working today in large parts of the world where government has little influence, like parts of Africa, Mongolia and even large parts of China. Again, you show a lack of factual knowledge on social/political antropology.

Another point where you seem to be not fully aware of is that an Anarchist system IS governed. It is governed by the people on their own local levels. Anarchy does have a form of government, but it's not a form where "professional politicians" have a chance. It's governed from the bottom up and not from the top down as in most other systems.

To come back to the head chopping...

In order for you, in this hypothetical case, to bring 20 friends to chop my head off, first of all you would need to convince those 20 friends why it would benefit them to help you chop off my head. this is where the difficulties start in an anarchist system, you would have to convince others to fight your war and you will need to convince them in a rational way because their support is handed out on a personal level and let's assume we live in the same "tribe", in this case many of your friends would be locals who have to deal with me and my friends all the time, which makes it harder to get support to start a war which includes many people, unless you have arguments which every one can agree with.

Now let's assume you are not living in the same community as I am, you still need to convince those 20 friends that chopping my head off is justified, and why. Me, on the other hand, only have to inform the people of my own community that an outsider is coming to chop my head off in our community, and the arguments I need to bring up to get support are more easy, as no one likes intruders who come and mess up the peace in their communities.

I hope you see where it is not as simple as you think it is.
 
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  #84  
Old 09-04-2007, 07:03 AM
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They were saying on a history programme the other day that every single human being shares enough genetic material to have origionated from one person. They have called this person Jane and surmised that she left African and settled in Europe god knows how many years ago.

I for one didnt buy it at the time but I have decided that it was all true and if it wasnt for this Jane person nothing would have happened ... ever.

So by definition EVERYTHING IS JANES FAULT. Hitler and Darwin can now both sleep comfortably in their graves because Jane is responsible.

I would like to apologies to anyone called Jane on here but perhaps everything that ever happened ever is your fault too.
 
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  #85  
Old 09-04-2007, 07:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferre View Post
I hope you see where it is not as simple as you think it is.

I hope you see that the truth is often very simple. Government is formed as a defense against lawlessness. Not any lawlessness, but particularly the lawlessness where groups form to prey on individuals and small groups which are not protected by organized police and other forms of law enforcement.


Quote:
History shows that anarchy has worked for centuries
Not, it hasn't worked.

Quote:
the ancient tribal system is an anarchist system
The tribal system where they have a tribal government and tribal laws? By definition, an anarchy cannot have either government or laws, so you are kind of being silly there, eh?
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like parts of Africa, Mongolia and even large parts of China
Which parts? Let's hear about which parts have no laws, no government. I'll go plunder and rape.

Quote:
Another point where you seem to be not fully aware of is that an Anarchist system IS governed
Hahahahaha!!!!

Quote:
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source
an·ar·chy /ˈænərki/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[an-er-kee] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. a state of society without government or law.
Seems you aren't anarchist after all.

Quote:
It is governed by the people on their own local levels.
Local government, with local laws, and law enforcement. Doesn't sound like anarchy to me. In fact, government by the people, as you describe, is called democracy.

No worries, English is not for everybody. You'll catch on.
Quote:
In order for you, in this hypothetical case, to bring 20 friends to chop my head off, first of all you would need to convince those 20 friends why it would benefit them to help you chop off my head. this is where the difficulties start in an anarchist system, you would have to convince others to fight your war and you will need to convince them in a rational way because their support is handed out on a personal level
Ever heard of mercenaries? Ever heard of Africa? In some uncivilized parts of Africa, they still raid other tribes, kill off their men, take their women and children as slaves. Motivation? Spoils. Women. Sex. Sparkly stuff.

Quote:
you still need to convince those 20 friends that chopping my head off is justified
Not justified, profitable.

****, Ferre, why do you think we have big strong governments with over a million soldiers? Ever hear of Hitler? Napoleon? Genghis Khan? Imperialism?

Governments exist to fill a very real need.
 
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  #86  
Old 09-04-2007, 09:06 AM
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John, for the last time, you really don't understand sh!t about anarchy. Anarchy has a form of government, although not centralized, it is governed by the people.

I'm very much aware that even *some* people who write dictionaries don't know sh!t about Anarchism, but that doesn't make them able to give an accurate description, as your example clearly displays.

Before you embarras yourself any further with your display of ignorance on this system, do some reading. Start here, who better to explain Anarchism than Anarchists themselves...

http://www.infoshop.org/faq/index.html
 
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  #87  
Old 09-04-2007, 01:08 PM
backgammonnn123 backgammonnn123 is offline
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Rankenstein, U have no scientific proof that intelligent design isnt true. I was just posing the question to you in a way that would ask if it can be possible.
I want you to prove to me that life came from random chaos. You cant can you. Why? Because as u said to me there is no scientific proof. We dont have the tools yet to measure this but use ur common sense. Look at our universal law. Has anything measurable ever arisen from complete random chaos? Nooooo

Even ask scientists and they will tell u that nature has a perfect balance to it and order of checks and counterbalances. Now i ask u again, can this be random. Forget science for a second and use your common god given() sense. Notice i said god given lol
 
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  #88  
Old 09-04-2007, 02:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by backgammonnn123 View Post
Random chaos.l
Blimey that must be either REALLY random or REALLY Chaotic!
 
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  #89  
Old 09-04-2007, 04:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferre View Post
Anarchy has a form of government, although not centralized, it is governed by the people.

That would be democratic minarchism, not anarchism.

Anarchism does not support governments.
 
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  #90  
Old 09-05-2007, 01:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Scott View Post
That would be democratic minarchism, not anarchism.

Anarchism does not support governments.
It does support people's committees, unions and other forms of people's self governing.

I see you still didn't take any effort of getting some information on a subject you make wild assumptions about.

Did you know that Anarchism is also often refered to as "Libertarian Socialism"? Guess not.
 
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  #91  
Old 09-05-2007, 02:19 AM
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Quote:
Did you know that Anarchism is also often refered to as "Libertarian Socialism"? Guess not.
You sure do assume a lot. I actually have a "Libertarian Socialism" bookmark folder. I no doubt know more than you ever will about the topic.


Quote:
It does support people's committees, unions and other forms of people's self governing.
Yes, but not government. Not law enforcement.

When you do your homework, and find out that anarchism, even the Libertarian Socialist version, does not support government, then come back and tell me whether you still think anarchism is feasible.
 
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  #92  
Old 09-05-2007, 04:36 AM
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Well, when you know so much about Anarchism as you claim you do, why are you assuming that Anarchism has no alternative for law enforcement while you should know better?

The "enforcement" part doesn't fit the anarchistic mindset, that's true, but that doesn't mean there are no solutions for handling crime.
 
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  #93  
Old 09-05-2007, 05:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferre View Post
Well, when you know so much about Anarchism as you claim you do, why are you assuming that Anarchism has no alternative for law enforcement while you should know better?

The "enforcement" part doesn't fit the anarchistic mindset, that's true, but that doesn't mean there are no solutions for handling crime.
No, Ferre, there is no valid solution for handling crime, neither is there a feasible solution to national defense.

You can pretend otherwise, in your abundance of naivety, but we all know otherwise don't we, thanks to history and common sense.
 
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  #94  
Old 09-05-2007, 05:53 AM
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Originally Posted by John Scott View Post
No, Ferre, there is no valid solution for handling crime, neither is there a feasible solution to national defense.
Well, are you saying that government enforced laws against crime do work?

To give you a little reminder, are you aware of what the experts have to say about the war on drugs, for example?

It's counter productive, just as alcohol prohibition was, refering to your history lesson.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Scott View Post
You can pretend otherwise, in your abundance of naivety, but we all know otherwise don't we, thanks to history and common sense.
I don't pretent otherwise John, the USA's prison population, organized crime and the failure of the drug war is a living proof.

Before you start asking for links...

http://www.dailypress.com/news/opini...,1610922.story
http://www.cato.org/research/crimina.../drug-war.html
http://news.newamericamedia.org/news...8ca13faef6605d
http://www.guardian.co.uk/drugs/Stor...521501,00.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/walter...t_b_16605.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...081701716.html
http://www.druglibrary.org/Schaffer/...Y/basicfax.htm


And today's headlines:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...47_neal04.html
http://www.marketwatch.com/news/stor...91F8BC822EC%7D
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...02/wafg302.xml
http://tierneylab.blogs.nytimes.com/...-the-drugs/?hp
 
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  #95  
Old 09-05-2007, 05:56 AM
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Quote:
USA's prison population
Is proof that law enforcement works. You seem a bit confused here, with the idea of law enforcement and what constitutes a working law enforcement.

Criminals being arrested, prosecuted, put in prison - a working law enforcement.

Criminals being asked not to commit crimes by a naive pothead - a NOT working law enforcement system.
 
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  #96  
Old 09-05-2007, 05:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by backgammonnn123 View Post
Rankenstein, U have no scientific proof that intelligent design isnt true. I was just posing the question to you in a way that would ask if it can be possible.
I want you to prove to me that life came from random chaos. You cant can you. Why? Because as u said to me there is no scientific proof. We dont have the tools yet to measure this but use ur common sense. Look at our universal law. Has anything measurable ever arisen from complete random chaos? Nooooo

Even ask scientists and they will tell u that nature has a perfect balance to it and order of checks and counterbalances. Now i ask u again, can this be random. Forget science for a second and use your common god given() sense. Notice i said god given lol
Yes, stars and planets arise from random chaos and presumably so did we. There's no need for any other explanation at least.
 
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  #97  
Old 09-05-2007, 06:01 AM
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Quote:
stars and planets arise from random chaos
Not a logically tenable statement, in its intention.

Unless you observed that the stars and planets, and the system that keeps them orbiting, arose from chaos, then your statement is not to be considered factual.
 
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  #98  
Old 09-05-2007, 06:07 AM
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What makes you believe that Anarchism/Libertarian socialism does not have a solution to deal with criminals John?

 
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  #99  
Old 09-05-2007, 06:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferre View Post
What makes you believe that Anarchism/Libertarian socialism does not have a solution to deal with criminals John?
Common sense. The brain in my head. Thoughts driven by logic.

Or, maybe you where looking for: a government.
 
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  #100  
Old 09-05-2007, 11:09 AM
backgammonnn123 backgammonnn123 is offline
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Rankenstein, wow you spoke therefore it is???????????? With no scientific proof to back up ur claim???????????????
Maybe merlin created them, but i gotta know what spell he used. Hmm maybe a little witch hazel nut

Last edited by backgammonnn123; 09-05-2007 at 11:18 AM.
 
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