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  #61  
Old 05-11-2012, 09:44 PM
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Lemme help ya out Muddy

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  #62  
Old 05-14-2012, 02:11 PM
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Whom do you serve?
 
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  #63  
Old 05-15-2012, 03:02 PM
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A REMINDER FOR US ALL

One of the reasons I have always loved this community is because it is the one place that people can go on the net and discuss their thoughts (as long as they are not hate type rants) and have no fears that they will be flamed. It is a place where people can agree to disagree without being disrespectful. Other forums may let conversational topics turn into a virtual bloodbath of rudeness, but that is not who WE are as a community.

Perhaps every now and then, this is something we all need to remember.
 
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  #64  
Old 05-18-2012, 12:54 PM
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  #65  
Old 05-23-2012, 07:09 PM
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Free from what?
 
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  #66  
Old 05-23-2012, 07:22 PM
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lol
 
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  #67  
Old 05-23-2012, 07:24 PM
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It's actually something that Jesus said. John 8:55

What do you suppose he meant?
 
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  #68  
Old 05-23-2012, 07:36 PM
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I'm an amalgamation.

I'd really love to capitalize that like Breeze likes to do...but I'd better not.

Most Christians are not truly Christian anyway.
 
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  #69  
Old 05-23-2012, 08:25 PM
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Mother, Father, Children. Trinity.

And frankly, hypocrisy is everywhere. I've yet to meet a person of such sterling integrity that I was ashamed to be in their presence.

Last edited by boxfiddler; 05-23-2012 at 08:28 PM. Reason: Add something
 
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  #70  
Old 05-23-2012, 08:35 PM
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Yeah, Jesus was probably the only one.
 
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  #71  
Old 05-23-2012, 08:36 PM
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Mother, Father, Children. Trinity.
Can you elucidate please?
 
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  #72  
Old 05-24-2012, 07:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Muddy View Post
It's actually something that Jesus said. John 8:55

What do you suppose he meant?
Muddy,

The statement of Christ "...and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free" (ESV) is found in John 8:32. To get more of the context of His statement:

John 8:31-32 "So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

From the text it is clear what Jesus meant. The Word of God (the Bible) is God's truth. If his disciples will abide in His Word, then they will have understanding (which the Pharisees in Chapter 8 did not), and the truth will set them free (from bondage to sin and death).

Looking further back in the text (the conversation taking place between Jesus and Pharisees), we see Jesus proclaiming truth in verse 12.

"Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”"

This was the very truth the Pharisees rejected, yet this same truth proved to be life and freedom to His disciples.
 
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  #73  
Old 05-24-2012, 02:46 PM
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Yes, John 8:32...thanks for the correction Lee! Was reading verse 32 but my cursor was on 55 so that's what it said at the bottom. I don't mind making a mistake because then the odds are that I might be okay for a little while! LOL!

Does simply knowing the truth set one free from the bondage of sin and death? Because don't Satan and his demons know the truth? (James 2:19) Plus, I thought that Jesus' sacrifice was what set mankind free from the bondage of sin and death.

Is it possible that knowing the truth sets one free from "bondage" to falsehoods? Things that are not taught in the Bible but are often promulgated by the clergy to their personal glory...instead of God's?
 
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  #74  
Old 05-24-2012, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Muddy View Post
Yes, John 8:32...thanks for the correction Lee! Was reading verse 32 but my cursor was on 55 so that's what it said at the bottom. I don't mind making a mistake because then the odds are that I might be okay for a little while! LOL!
I make similar and many other mistakes regularly, I can relate!

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Originally Posted by Muddy View Post
Does simply knowing the truth set one free from the bondage of sin and death? Because don't Satan and his demons know the truth? (James 2:19)
Knowing has multiple meanings. The demons do know truth of God. They fear and tremble. They know clearly who is Lord, the Son of the Most High God (Mark's gospel). Yet, their knowledge is FAR from saving knowledge. To know the truth in a saving way means that a disciple believes upon it, is cast wholly upon God, and looks to nothing but the merit of Jesus Christ's atoning sacrifice on the cross for his salvation.

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Originally Posted by Muddy View Post
Plus, I thought that Jesus' sacrifice was what set mankind free from the bondage of sin and death.
Genuine faith in Christ's sacrifice sets a man free. According to the Scriptures, Christ's death atoned for (covered the sins of) and is the propitiation for the sins of those whom God elected and chooses to save (not all of mankind). All that come Him, all whom Jesus draws (John 6:37, 444), will be saved to the uttermost (Hebrews 7).

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Originally Posted by Muddy View Post
Is it possible that knowing the truth sets one free from "bondage" to falsehoods? Things that are not taught in the Bible but are often promulgated by the clergy to their personal glory...instead of God's?
Not sure I follow you here. Certainly God's truth sets a believer free (often not all at once, but over time) from many false beliefs or incorrect understandings. God's word will guide the believer into more and more truth through the Holy Spirit's lifelong teaching, the proper preaching of the whole counsel of God, and fellowship with other godly Christians. There is certainly plentiful error, it abounds today (and has for millenia).
 
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  #75  
Old 05-24-2012, 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by stephengfm View Post
Pray for more Wisdom, brother.
I don't, on the whole, believe in prayer.
Although ...

My wife believes in prayer.
One day she confided to me she had been praying ceaselessly
for many months for something to no avail.
I replied. "What, woman! Have you no faith?
Stop praying so God will know you are done."
She considered my words and stopped.

The next day her prayer was answered.
 
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  #76  
Old 05-24-2012, 09:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeeD View Post
Knowing has multiple meanings. The demons do know truth of God. They fear and tremble. They know clearly who is Lord, the Son of the Most High God (Mark's gospel). Yet, their knowledge is FAR from saving knowledge. To know the truth in a saving way means that a disciple believes upon it, is cast wholly upon God, and looks to nothing but the merit of Jesus Christ's atoning sacrifice on the cross for his salvation.
That would make sense with what I've read in the Bible. But it seems like more is required than just belief or faith. In fact the scriptures surrounding James 2:19 seem to be pretty clear about that. (James 2:14-26)

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeeD View Post
Genuine faith in Christ's sacrifice sets a man free. According to the Scriptures, Christ's death atoned for (covered the sins of) and is the propitiation for the sins of those whom God elected and chooses to save (not all of mankind). All that come Him, all whom Jesus draws (John 6:37, 444), will be saved to the uttermost (Hebrews 7).
I've read that the benefits of Jesus' sacrifice were originally offered to the Jews, but I thought that ultimately "the whole world" benefited. (1 John 2:2) With the caveat mentioned above that more is required than faith alone. Apparently obedience is also a prerequisite. (John 3:36, Hebrews 5:9) Which I guess may tie in with being "drawn" or "chosen"?


Quote:
Originally Posted by LeeD View Post
Not sure I follow you here. Certainly God's truth sets a believer free (often not all at once, but over time) from many false beliefs or incorrect understandings. God's word will guide the believer into more and more truth through the Holy Spirit's lifelong teaching, the proper preaching of the whole counsel of God, and fellowship with other godly Christians. There is certainly plentiful error, it abounds today (and has for millenia).
Yep, you followed me! False beliefs and incorrect understandings...truth being the opposite of such things. I certainly agree with you about error being plentiful. Seems like that's why truth is needed. To provide freedom from erroneous thinking and teachings that can actually be oppressive. Like the one where a "god of love" perpetually tortures the majority of his human "children" in a never-ending fiery inferno.

I appreciate your explanations Lee. It's not the first time you've helped me see things a different way! Can't say I'll always agree, but I will when I can! LOL!
 
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  #77  
Old 05-24-2012, 09:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabble View Post
I don't, on the whole, believe in prayer.
Although ...

My wife believes in prayer.
One day she confided to me she had been praying ceaselessly
for many months for something to no avail.
I replied. "What, woman! Have you no faith?
Stop praying so God will know you are done."
She considered my words and stopped.

The next day her prayer was answered.
That's consistent with Psalm 55:22. Once you've cast your burden on someone else, you no longer carry it yourself.
 
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  #78  
Old 05-25-2012, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Muddy View Post
That would make sense with what I've read in the Bible. But it seems like more is required than just belief or faith. In fact the scriptures surrounding James 2:19 seem to be pretty clear about that. (James 2:14-26)
There is something right about your understanding here, but let me see if I can shed additional light upon it. When we consider faith and works, we must be careful and only hold to what Scripture teaches. The Roman Catholic church has erred greatly here and distorted James's teaching in a dangerous, Gospel crushing way. They would teach that a man is justified (declared righteous before God) based on faith + works. This is so contrary to Scripture (keep reading!). James has the intention of demolishing the the belief that I can have faith in Christ, yet live HOW I WANT TO LIVE. A faith that is not accompanied by works is dead. It isn't a true and saving faith. It is a feigned faith, damnable faith, it is phony. True, saving faith in Jesus Christ ALWAYS bears fruit (John 15:5, Mark 4:20, etc). Here James distinguishes between true faith (which bears fruit) and false faith (which is in word only, not deed). James perfectly agrees with the Apostle Paul who said, "...yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified." (Galatians 2:16) and "For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law." (Romans 3:2

When God saves a man, he gives His Spirit (he makes his abode with the man) and gives to that man a new heart. There is utter and complete change, behold all things have become new. The man no longer loves sin, but rather hates it (feels the same way about it that God does). True and saving faith brings about a total transformation in the life of a believer and thus there actions (and thought life and words) and radically different than before conversion.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Muddy View Post
I've read that the benefits of Jesus' sacrifice were originally offered to the Jews, but I thought that ultimately "the whole world" benefited. (1 John 2:2) With the caveat mentioned above that more is required than faith alone. Apparently obedience is also a prerequisite. (John 3:36, Hebrews 5:9) Which I guess may tie in with being "drawn" or "chosen"?
I find no Scriptural basis for Jesus sacrifice being "originally offered to the Jews". His earthly ministry was primarily towards the Jews (to the house of Israel), but on many occasions he healed and forgave Gentiles.

Regarding 1 John 2:2, we need to be careful and not go beyond the Lord's intent here (through John's pen of course). When we read "and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world", we should make sure that we define "world" according to the context. If you take "world" to mean all men, everywhere, and from all ages then I think you misunderstand and ultimately contradict much of the New Testament's teaching. The Apostle John is writing to close friends, dearly beloved believers. Thus he continually uses the phrase "my little children". When we take verse 2 of chapter 2 in context, we will see that John is saying to his audience that Jesus Christ is the propitiation for our sins (the group receiving the letter) and the sins of the whole world (people from every tribe, tongue, nation).

See another text of John's, Revelation 5:9 "And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation"

I wholeheartedly want to affirm what Scripture says about the extent of the atonement. I think it very dangerous when we go beyond what Scripture says.

Jesus Christ (according to the Bible) died for:

~ God's people ("He was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of My people" - Isaiah 53:8; "He shall save His people from their sins" - Matt. 1:21; "I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours." - John 17:9)

~ His sheep ("I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep." - John 10:11 - note that Jesus categorically states that some are not His sheep - "but you do not believe because you are not My sheep." - John 10:26)

~ His friends ("Greater love has no one than this, that someone lays down his life for his friends. You are My friends if you do what I command you." - John 15:13-14;

~ the Church ("... the church of God, which He obtained with His own blood." - Acts 20:28; "Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her, that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her..." - Eph. 5:25, 26).

Also, Dr. Phil Johnson (who provided the helpful chart below) writes, "There is little doubt that this is how John's initial audience would have understood this expression. "The whole world" means "people of all kinds, including Jews, Gentiles, Greeks, Romans, and whatnot" as opposed to "ours only" i.e., the Jewish nation. What the apostle John is saying in the John 11 passage is particularly significant: Christ died so that he might gather "the children of God" the elect, from the whole world."



I hope this clarifies what Scripture says about the extent of Christ's sacrfice upon the cross. He powerfully saves all God's people, He didn't just make salvation possible for everyone!

Now, you mention that something (particularly obedience / works) is needed in addition to faith for a man to be saved. Remember that the Bible says a man is just by faith apart from works. Works are the fruit of faith. Without faith a man cannot please God (Romans 8:7-. When God draws a man, the man is awakened (made aware of his sinfulness and the justice of God), God through the work of the Holy Spirit in the man regenerates (brings to life) the man, the man is now able to believe and repent, and the man is converted, translated from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light (Colossians 1:13).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muddy View Post
Yep, you followed me! False beliefs and incorrect understandings...truth being the opposite of such things. I certainly agree with you about error being plentiful. Seems like that's why truth is needed. To provide freedom from erroneous thinking and teachings that can actually be oppressive. Like the one where a "god of love" perpetually tortures the majority of his human "children" in a never-ending fiery inferno.

I appreciate your explanations Lee. It's not the first time you've helped me see things a different way! Can't say I'll always agree, but I will when I can! LOL!
Truth is needed and God is truth and there exists no truth outside of God. Many are blinded (by the god of this world, Satan - 2 Corinthians 4:4) and sin is ever so deceitful and sick (Jeremiah 17:9). Eternal life is to know the One True God and Jesus Christ whom He has sent (John 17:3). This truth, the only truth that rescues a man from eternal torment and destruction, is desperately needed in our society and everywhere. The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation for all that believe (Romans 1:16).

I do think the Bible clearly teaches God's wrath will eternally be poured out upon the unbelieving, wicked ones who die in their sins. Scripture is clear here. Is this something you don't agree with?
 
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  #79  
Old 05-25-2012, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by LeeD View Post
I do think the Bible clearly teaches God's wrath will eternally be poured out upon the unbelieving, wicked ones who die in their sins. Scripture is clear here. Is this something you don't agree with?
Although you entire response was not directed to me ...
I do disagree with the above statement. And, as I stated earlier,
I am not going to be bothered with the bible thumping and proof by scripture.

Religious zealots and self-righteous power mongers have ringed us about
and corralled us in since time immemorial with their teachings of those things
which they imagine to be true because ... perhaps because it seems profitable
to them in some manner.

Jesus' message was plain and clear and requires no interpretation.
'I love you. I have compassion for your suffering and I will return to
rescue you.'

The means to our salvation is not ours.
As Jesus sad to the adulterous woman, 'Neither do I condemn thee.'
We are already saved. What is being worked out here is not whether
we are saved. This is certain.

What is being determined is whether, by the necessity of a choice we make,
if we will need to spend a thousand years wailing and gnashing our teeth in
the outer darkness.

Last edited by rabble; 05-25-2012 at 12:04 PM.
 
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  #80  
Old 05-25-2012, 03:48 PM
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Although you entire response was not directed to me ... I do disagree with the above statement. And, as I stated earlier,
I am not going to be bothered with the bible thumping and proof by scripture.
Rabble, where do you get your understanding of Jesus Christ if not from the Bible? Jesus spoke of hell on a regular basis. Hell's origin was not scrupulous power hungry men. It is the place God has prepared for the devil, demons, and all the wicked. I would be glad to engage you in this discussion, but just not certain where you are coming from here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rabble View Post
Jesus' message was plain and clear and requires no interpretation.
'I love you. I have compassion for your suffering and I will return to
rescue you.'
This is something of what Jesus preached, but far from His full message. I do think His message was plain to those whom God grants understanding, but obviously the vast multitudes about Israel in His day DID NOT understand and crucified the Lord of Glory. You aren't expressing a full biblical understanding of what Jesus Christ preached and taught at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rabble View Post
The means to our salvation is not ours.
As Jesus sad to the adulterous woman, 'Neither do I condemn thee.'
We are already saved. What is being worked out here is not whether
we are saved. This is certain.
We are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone. This life will determine where we spend eternity. Jesus didn't condemn the woman caught in adultery because he forgave her sins. She was justified before God from that point forward.
 
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