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  #41  
Old 06-02-2010, 06:37 AM
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Originally Posted by nightcrawler View Post
Docc I agree with you, but again there is two sides of the pictures. Now whole world is divided into two parts on this discussion. Some say Israel did the right thing and others are saying they killed innocent people an act of terrorism.

If I am an Israeli supporter I would definitely agree Israel did the right thing as those peace activists attacked and provoked the soldiers clearly shown in video.

On the other hand IMO and I don't really know what is the policy when someone raise white flags is it ok to drop soldiers through helicopters for takeover? Possibly it might have intimated some of the people out of 600 that Israeli soldiers gonna attack us. Just my thinking...
Source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_flag

The white flag is an internationally recognized protective sign of truce or ceasefire, and request for negotiation. It is also used to symbolize surrender, since it is often the weaker military party which requests negotiation. A white flag signifies to all that an approaching negotiator is unarmed, with an intent to surrender or a desire to communicate. Persons carrying or waving a white flag are not to be fired upon, nor are they allowed to open fire. The use of the flag to surrender is included in the Geneva Conventions.

The improper use of a white flag

The improper use of a white flag is forbidden by the rules of war and constitutes a war crime of perfidy. There have been numerous reported cases of such behaviour in conflicts, such as fighters using white flags as a ruse to approach and attack enemies, or killings of fighters attempting to surrender by carrying white flags. Many times since the weaker party is in a decrepit state, a white flag would be fashioned out of anything readily available, like a t-shirt or handkerchief. The most common way of making a white flag is to obtain a pole and tie two corners of a sheet of cloth to the top of the pole and somewhere in the middle.

If you raise the white flag it means a request for negotiation. It is also used to symbolize surrender
Negotiation they did not respond to any radio messages.
Surrender? we all have seen the videos.

In my opinion it is improper use of the white flag.

Last edited by piet; 06-02-2010 at 06:55 AM.
 
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  #42  
Old 06-02-2010, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by piet View Post

The improper use of a white flag

In my opinion it is improper use of the white flag.
As I said there are two medias if you watch Arabic Media from start you will not say the same.

And If I watch the Jewish media I will definitely support them... When white flag is raised is it ok to take down a ship with Helicopters and dropping down the ropes?
 
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  #43  
Old 06-02-2010, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by nightcrawler View Post
When white flag is raised is it ok to take down a ship with Helicopters and dropping down the ropes?
There are two answers to that, I think.

First, in a blockade situation, claims of rightful repelling of boarders aren't valid. By putting themselves in that physical location, and refusing to change course, they submitted themselves to rightful boarding, IMO.

Second, a white flag signifies either surrender or willingness to negotiate, depending upon which interpretation one chooses. In either case, it invites boarding. And attacking the boarding party (and from what I'm seeing so far, that was the plan all along), justifies the self-defense actions taken.

Now, whether killing nine people was necessary, I don't know. We weren't there, so we may never know. The bottom line on that, I think, is that neither side can be depended upon to present an unbiased report. At some point, we'll just have to make a judgment call.

The boarders, seeing their mates clubbed and thrown about, also had to make a judgment call, and they had considerably less time to do so, than we.
 
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  #44  
Old 06-02-2010, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by DocC View Post
much of it from opposite extremes... which do we believe? If we're smart, I think none, yet. The fat lady ain't sung, yet.
I personally think you should believe ME.

The roots of this conflict go back so very far and very deep that
those who continue to wait to decide will be waiting on the fence forever.
I agree with everyone there.

The real choice is not between warring parties.
That is no choice however difficult.
The real and easy choice is peace.

There is no other path that can prevail.

Last edited by rabble; 06-02-2010 at 08:57 AM.
 
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  #45  
Old 06-02-2010, 09:18 AM
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The real and easy choice is peace.
I agree, but sadly everyone finds a reason for War! Peace...
 
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  #46  
Old 06-02-2010, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nightcrawler
When white flag is raised is it ok to take down a ship with Helicopters and dropping down the ropes?
I dont know at what point a white flag was raised, but a white flag signifies submission, or at the very least "dont shoot us and we wont try to attack you". In a situation where a vessel is trying to run a naval blockade a white flag not only doesnt stop the guys running the blockade from boarding, it would signify that boarding would be allowed without resistance.

Had the IDF expected resistance or had intent to murder the occupants of the boat they'd have raked the deck with gunfire before the boarders fast-roped to the deck. Additionally, if those videos are accurate it clearly shows the boarders being attacked from all sides as they hit the deck. Had they been there to murder the passengers I'd have expected them to clear those decks in a few seconds with the semi-autos you know they had to have in hand.

Simply put, the reaction of the occupants of the boat being boarded was 100% inconsistent with the actions of anyone that'd raised a white flag, so either the white flag had not yet been raised or the guys on the ship violated it bigtime.

Based on the data available so far, I'd conclude the flotilla was not populated by a bright crew. If you attack armed soldiers with whatever improvised weapons you can muster... you *will* get shot. The fact that the death toll wasn't higher indicates the troops tried to stop the violence aimed their way, not escalate it or indiscriminately murder unarmed civilians.

Whether the embargo itself is unjust is a separate issue, but the flotilla deaths do not bear any appearance of being cold-blooded murder, they appear to be attributable to gross stupidity on the part of the deceased.

Last edited by robjones; 06-02-2010 at 11:23 AM.
 
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  #47  
Old 06-07-2010, 02:42 AM
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Sorry, Rob, if someone behaved like a pirate in International waters, the Israelis were not even bright enough to wait till the ship was in the blockade zone, then i would use anything I could to defend myself. Who was to know that the soldiers were not under orders to shoot anyone they found on board and sink the vessel?

Anyone using firearms against people armed with sticks and bars need to be tried for murder if they kill and this highly trained group shot dead 9 people armed with no firearms at all.

I was just sad that Turkey did not end a gunboat, as they threatened, to ****** the last ship across.

I used to be sympathetic to Israel, but they have lost that from me, and from many nations, with this fatal high handed bully tactics.

I hope the International community can now put behind them any debt they felt that was owed to Israel because of WW2 and bully the bullies into accepting that they cannot go on expanding on other people's territory and prepare grounds for real discussions for peace. Rabble is right that is the only future.
 
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  #48  
Old 06-08-2010, 06:40 AM
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this was a great act of terrorism that was noticed quickly by all international organizations.... It is highly illegal to stop any ship or boat or attack in international waters you can't harm anyone or just attack until and unless they enter the water of your territory
 
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  #49  
Old 06-08-2010, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
It is highly illegal to stop any ship or boat or attack in international waters you can't harm anyone or just attack until and unless they enter the water of your territory
Not sure how long you've been practicing maritime law, but there are legal analysts taking both sides of that argument. Bottom line this isnt the only boat the Israelis have stopped, yet it is the one where people got shot, and coincidentally the boat where the occupants attacked the authorities enforcing a military blockade.

Shady Journalism Exposed by Bloggers
Something I've found disturbing about this is the fact that Reuters, under the guise of responsible news organization, selectively cropped photos to try and make the "peace activists" seem less aggressive. Pictures available on other sources in their full form were in several instances published by Reuters in a format that deliberately cropped out knives, blood pools, a broken bottle wielded by a passenger, etc.

In a picture that shows a Israeli commando laying on the ground with what appears to be a knife wound, a passenger standing over him with a knife might just be a pertinent part of the photo. It certainly isnt what you'd crop out. When you have a commando on the ground being held down with fear in his eyes as his lashed hands are stretched above his head... thats another case where cropping out the guy standing over him with a serrated hunting knife might actually provide a little detail.

I have zero problems with news orgs brightening pictures or adjusting contrast for purposes of clarity. I do however object to removing details for the purpose of manipulating opinion. Reuters has previously been caught actually publishing an image photoshopped to clone bad portions and magnify apparent damage. That is not journalism.

Regardless of one's opinion on the topic, using a "news" story to obfuscate inconvenient details that do not forward the objective of the supposed journalist is irresponsible, and it violates Reuters own guidelines. You expect that out of people that're obviously on one side or the other, but the news organizations intentionally misleading folks is not a good thing.

Bloggers in Pajamas Win Again
Reuters has quietly uncropped the photographs (after they got caught), but I cant figure out why there isnt a bigger outcry against it. The mainstream media is remarkably mute on the point. Maybe it's because once again the other mainstream media either missed it and tried to ignore it and bloggers picked up on it and made it too well known to pass unseen. Kudos to the guys running the website "Little Green Footballs" for catching the "journalists" playing games with the truth.

Again, you do not have to agree with the viewpoint of the bloggers on that site to appreciate them for running interference when a "news" organization gets shady in their approach to reporting.

There's a lot of crap that gets published on blogs, and they obviously follow the political bent of their writers... but the same is becoming obviously true of mainstream news. Anyway... once again a sharpeyed blogger held the main stream guys held to account for trying to direct the outcome instead of report factually. Story is shown here.

Last edited by robjones; 06-08-2010 at 09:28 AM.
 
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  #50  
Old 06-08-2010, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymously View Post
Sorry, Rob, if someone behaved like a pirate in International waters, the Israelis were not even bright enough to wait till the ship was in the blockade zone, then i would use anything I could to defend myself. Who was to know that the soldiers were not under orders to shoot anyone they found on board and sink the vessel?
the US Navy’s Commander’s Handbook on the Law of Naval Operations
please read Article 7.7.4

“Attempted breach of blockade occurs from the time a vessel or aircraft leaves a port or airfield with the intention of evading the blockade…It is immaterial that the vessel or aircraft is at the time of interception bound for neutral territory, if its ultimate destination is the blockaded area.”

a State which has established a naval blockade may capture a vessel attempting to breach a blockade before it has actually breached. As long as there are reasonable grounds to believe a vessel has the intention of breaching a blockade, “capture of a vessel attempting to breach a Naval Blockade can be done in international waters, before entrance to the blockaded area

Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymously View Post
Anyone using firearms against people armed with sticks and bars need to be tried for murder if they kill and this highly trained group shot dead 9 people armed with no firearms at all.
You forget these
1. the people armed with sticks and bars tired to kill a soldier by throwing him one deck lower.
2. Ten people armed with sticks and bars hit one idf soldier?
3. Stun grenades thrown at soldiers.
4. Fire bomb thrown at soldiers.
5. The people armed with stick and bars also used knives
6. Slingshots where used.
7. Broken Bottles where used.
8. There where 2 guns grabbed and used.

Please watch this video very good.
and see how the first soldiers only had paintball guns.
But more important see how one soldier is being stabbed in his back, and don't use his weapon.
These guys only used there weapons as a last option.

[YT]JaiMjAULWn0&NR=1[/YT]



[YT]fZ0drBX8Ru0[/YT]

We have been here already, but here you go:
http://www.v7n.com/forums/1406925-post41.html


Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymously View Post
I hope the International community can now put behind them any debt they felt that was owed to Israel because of WW2 and bully the bullies into accepting that they cannot go on expanding on other people's territory and prepare grounds for real discussions for peace. Rabble is right that is the only future.
What a remark there, do you really know what you are saying here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by spree-seo View Post
this was a great act of terrorism that was noticed quickly by all international organizations.... It is highly illegal to stop any ship or boat or attack in international waters you can't harm anyone or just attack until and unless they enter the water of your territory
I am no expert, but please tell me where is this stated in the US Navy’s Commander’s Handbook on the Law of Naval Operations?

Last edited by piet; 06-08-2010 at 12:38 PM.
 
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  #51  
Old 06-08-2010, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by piet View Post
the US Navyís Commanderís Handbook on the Law of Naval Operations
please read Article 7.7.4
Sorry the world does not live by the US internal martial laws,
only the US thinks it does

Quote:
You forget these
1. the people armed with sticks and bars tired to kill a soldier by throwing him one deck lower.
2. Ten people armed with sticks and bars hit one idf soldier?
3. Stun grenades thrown at soldiers.
4. Fire bomb thrown at soldiers.
5. The people armed with stick and bars also used knives
6. Slingshots where used.
7. Broken Bottles where used.
8. There where 2 guns grabbed and used.
You forgot that the army invaded an aid boat of people with no firearms and went with massive firepower. How did those on board know that when these pirates attacked they were all not going to be killed. You forget that the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights has called the blockade illegal http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LDE65407X.htm and therefore the people on the ship had every right to believe they as unarmed civilians were being attacked by armed troops.
Quote:
Please watch this video very good.
and see how the first soldiers only had paintball guns.
But more important see how one soldier is being stabbed in his back, and don't use his weapon.
You mean in the dark and under serious threat you expect untrained civilians to say 'High guys, we see you only have paint ball guns, can we just see that at close quarters to be sure'. I am certain that if this incident was related in court the court would accept that the people on board had every right to assume that these were real guns touted by real soldiers and their lives were or could be in danger.
Quote:
These guys only used there weapons as a last option.
The troops chose their method of attack, they are highly trained military personal and they tacked people with sticks, bars and knives and used guns to shoot them dead. UK police often face that in demonstrations here and they do not carry firearms. Anyone needing to use firearms to quell this group used excessive force to do so. They murdered them.



Quote:
What a remark there, do you really know what you are saying here?
This was in response to me hoping that Turtkey would send a gun boat alongside another aid ship. You think its OK for the Isrealis to use helicopters, live ammo and kill people, but the next ship should not have any protection to prevent them from being shot too? And you ask me if I know what I have said???


Quote:
I am no expert, but please tell me where is this stated in the US Navyís Commanderís Handbook on the Law of Naval Operations?
So the US Navy Commander's handbook is the law of the world? Reminds me of that old picture 'Those Magnificent Men in Their Flying Machines' where a German officer is trying to fly a plane, never having flown before and reading the German Officers handbook saying 'The German Officers handbook tells us how to do anything'.
 
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  #52  
Old 06-08-2010, 05:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymously View Post

So the US Navy Commander's handbook is the law of the world? Reminds me of that old picture 'Those Magnificent Men in Their Flying Machines' where a German officer is trying to fly a plane, never having flown before and reading the German Officers handbook saying 'The German Officers handbook tells us how to do anything'.

FYI, anonymously...

The US Navy Commander's handbook IS, in fact, the law of the world. It deals specifically with Maritime Law, NOT US law. To my memory, the only references to US law in the entire text, are the MANY reminders throughout, that failure to follow the international laws spelled out there, will ALSO result in prosecution for US laws.
 
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  #53  
Old 06-08-2010, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by DocC View Post
FYI, anonymously...

The US Navy Commander's handbook IS, in fact, the law of the world. It deals specifically with Maritime Law, NOT US law. To my memory, the only references to US law in the entire text, are the MANY reminders throughout, that failure to follow the international laws spelled out there, will ALSO result in prosecution for US laws.
If anyone posts an external reference then it needs to be referenced correctly.
 
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  #54  
Old 06-08-2010, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by anonymously View Post
If anyone posts an external reference then it needs to be referenced correctly.
Fair enough. Unfortunately, I no longer have my copy, having worn it out many years ago. You'll have to make do with an on-line version.

http://www.history.navy.mil/library/...arfare.htm#ch1

Special attention to Chapter One.
 
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  #55  
Old 06-08-2010, 06:44 PM
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I am afraid there are those that are so anxious to find wrong with a particular group they are unable to use critical thinking skills when evaluating what was the actual happenings.

Critical thinking skills are the skills to evaluate information without judgement, using observation, research, discussion, and other available means of discernment in order to reach a valid conclusion...not the verbatim wording of the definition, but a summarized point....

To many times people are to quick to jump to a conclusion based on desire, or other feelings, rather than the fact, so is becoming the case it seems more and more these days...Cricket's assume the positive is some of the best advice I have heard in a long time...just because a ship is boarded in an attempt to breach a naval blockade, and that intention was advertised well, and for an extended time before the ship even entered any waters, does not mean those performing the boarding were doing it out of malice, self preservation is not an act of malice.


Quote:
A statement by Michael Scriven & Richard Paul for the
{presented at the 8th Annual International Conference on Critical Thinking and Education Reform, Summer 1987}.

Critical thinking is the intellectually disciplined process of actively and skillfully conceptualizing, applying, analyzing, synthesizing, and/or evaluating information gathered from, or generated by, observation, experience, reflection, reasoning, or communication, as a guide to belief and action. In its exemplary form, it is based on universal intellectual values that transcend subject matter divisions: clarity, accuracy, precision, consistency, relevance, sound evidence, good reasons, depth, breadth, and fairness.

It entails the examination of those structures or elements of thought implicit in all reasoning: purpose, problem, or question-at-issue; assumptions; concepts; empirical grounding; reasoning leading to conclusions; implications and consequences; objections from alternative viewpoints; and frame of reference. Critical thinking — in being responsive to variable subject matter, issues, and purposes — is incorporated in a family of interwoven modes of thinking, among them: scientific thinking, mathematical thinking, historical thinking, anthropological thinking, economic thinking, moral thinking, and philosophical thinking.

Critical thinking can be seen as having two components: 1) a set of information and belief generating and processing skills, and 2) the habit, based on intellectual commitment, of using those skills to guide behavior. It is thus to be contrasted with: 1) the mere acquisition and retention of information alone, because it involves a particular way in which information is sought and treated; 2) the mere possession of a set of skills, because it involves the continual use of them; and 3) the mere use of those skills ("as an exercise") without acceptance of their results.

Critical thinking varies according to the motivation underlying it. When grounded in selfish motives, it is often manifested in the skillful manipulation of ideas in service of one’’s own, or one's groups’’, vested interest. As such it is typically intellectually flawed, however pragmatically successful it might be. When grounded in fairmindedness and intellectual integrity, it is typically of a higher order intellectually, though subject to the charge of "idealism" by those habituated to its selfish use.
http://www.criticalthinking.org/abou...l_thinking.cfm
 
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  #56  
Old 06-09-2010, 05:44 AM
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Had y'all already seen this?
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/06...ade-commandos/
 
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  #57  
Old 06-09-2010, 08:05 AM
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No, hadnt seen it Cricket... but I see they published it on the same day I mentioned it, and they referenced the same blog I referenced. I'd seen the strategically cropped pics mentioned in a P&R forum a day or two before Fox picked up the story and did a google search. Little green footballs blog came up, Fox story didnt, so I dont think Fox had published theirs when I started the post up there on the 8th. Glad to see Fox is gonna publish it AND give credit to the bloggers at LGF that broke the story. Good for them.

Interesting that Reuters claims they didnt crop with a political motive (gee, why would anyone think a knife and a trail of blood might be a pertinent part of the picture given the scenario?)... and just as interesting they have yet to respond to the fact that they did it to another pic with a knife as well.

Coincidences at Reuters must just be an astounding part of their daily life given that the parts of the pictures they eliminate in the normal course seem to routinely be the part that has bearing on the story, and seems to uniformly favor one side.

Last edited by robjones; 06-09-2010 at 08:11 AM.
 
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  #58  
Old 06-09-2010, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymously View Post
If anyone posts an external reference then it needs to be referenced correctly.

My Bad anonymously, here is the link to the one i have used.

The Commander's handbook on the law of naval operations

The British-based Reuters news agency has been stung for the second time by charges that it edited politically sensitive photos in a way that casts Israel in a bad light.

They knew what they were doing! No photojournalist would crop a knife out of a photo unless they had a very good reason to do so and that reason wouldn't be journalistic!

Where is the uproar about this issue?
 
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Old 06-09-2010, 01:07 PM
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while all of you sit around discussing who shot or stabbed who
and what is the legitimate law of the sea in regards to blockades,
real people are suffering under this blockade in Gaza.

Quote:
Electricity: The siege has led to a significant lack of power in the Gaza Strip. In 2006, Israel carried out an attack on Gaza's only power plant and never permitted the rebuilding to its pre-attack capacity (down to producing 80 megawatts maximum from 140 megawatts). According to the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (UN OCHA), the daily electricity deficit has increased since January of 2010 with the plant only able to operate one turbine producing only 30 megawatts compared to its previous average of 60-65 megawatts in 2009. The majority of houses have power cuts at least eight hours per day. Some have no electricity for long as 12 hours a day. The lack of electricity has led to reliance on generators, many of which have exploded from overwork, killing and maiming civilians. Oxfam reported that "[in 2009], a total of 75 Palestinians died from carbon monoxide gas poisoning or fires from generators, and 15 died and 27 people were injured in the first two months of this year."

Water: Israel has not permitted supplies into the Gaza Strip to rebuild the sewage system.Amnesty International reports that 90-95 percent of the drinking water in Gaza is contaminated and unfit for consumption. The United Nations even found that bottled water in Gaza contained contaminants, likely due to the plastic bottles recycled in dysfunctional factories. The lack of sufficient power for desalination and sewage facilities results in significant amounts of sewage seeping into Gaza's costal aquifer--the main source of water for the people of Gaza.
Industry: Prior to the siege, the industrial sector employed 20 percent of Gaza's labor force. One year after the siege began, the Palestinian Federation of Industries reported that "61% of the factories have completely closed down. 1% was forced to change their scope of work in order to meet their living expenses, 38% were partially closed (sometimes means they operate with less than 15% capacity)". A World Health Organization report from this year states: "In the Gaza Strip, private enterprise is practically at a standstill as a consequence of the blockade. Almost all (98%) industrial operations have been shut down. The construction sector, which before September 2000 provided 15% of all jobs, has effectively halted. Only 258 industrial establishments in Gaza were operational in 2009 compared with over 2400 in 2006. As a result, unemployment rates have soared to 42% (up from 32% before the blockade)."
Health: Gaza's health sector, dramatically overworked, was also significantly damaged by Operation Cast Lead. According to UN OCHA, infrastructure for 15 of 27 of Gaza's hospitals, 43 of 110 of its primary care facilities, and 29 of its 148 ambulances were damaged or destroyed during the war. Without rebuilding materials like cement and glass due to Israeli restrictions, the vast majority of the destroyed health infrastructure has not been rebuilt. Many medical procedures for advanced illnesses are not available in Gaza. 1103 individuals applied for permits to exit the Israeli-controlled Erez crossing for medical treatment in 2009. 21 percent of these permits were denied or delayed resulting in missed hospital appointments, and several have died waiting to leave Gaza for treatment.
Food: A 2010 World Health Organization report stated that "chronic malnutrition in the Gaza Strip has risen over the past few years and has now reached 10.2%. Micronutrient deficiencies among children and women have reached levels that are of concern." According to UN OCHA:"Over 60 percent of households are now food insecure, threatening the health and wellbeing of children, women and men. In this context, agriculture offers some practical solutions to a humanitarian problem. However, Israel's import and access restrictions continue to suffocate the agriculture sector and directly contribute to rising food insecurity. Of particular concern, farmers and fishers' lives are regularly put at risk, due to Israel's enforcement of its access restrictions. The fact that this coastal population now imports fish from Israel and through tunnels under the Gaza-Egypt border speaks to the absurdity of the situation." 72 percent of Gaza's fish profit comes from beyond the three nautical mile mark, but further restrictions by Israel's naval blockade prevents Gazans from fishing beyond that mark. Between 2008 and 2009 the fishing catch was down 47 percent.


Last edited by rabble; 06-09-2010 at 01:17 PM.
 
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  #60  
Old 06-09-2010, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabble View Post
while all of you sit around discussing who shot or stabbed who
and what is the legitimate law of the sea in regards to blockades,
real people are suffering under this blockade in Gaza.
Respectfully, what was is that you thought WE should be doing?
 
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