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  #21  
Old 04-03-2012, 04:45 AM
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Just a note on the TSA and the perceived safety factor...
My sister and her family are in the US right now.
They flew into the US from outside it and were not subjected to TSA screenings of any kind.
No pat downs and no scanners. And I doubt the airport they flew out of was "under the TSA's radar".
So, with the enormous and insurmountable costs that would be associated with TSA being present in the airports throughout the world, coupled with the diplomatic nightmare of having TSA operating in several different countries around the world, I am forced to the conclusion that the TSA only operates within the borders of the USA.
That suggests that they are really there, more for your harrassment, than to keep you safe from terrorists.
I would think the terrorists you are trying to protect yourself from (mostly) are external, where the TSA doesn't operate.

And, as far as the Cricket-Haley debate goes, you're both right.

As I read it, Haley is basically saying that things are f'd up!
To which, Cricket retorts "Yeah. So we gotta get our s**t together and fix things.".
 
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  #22  
Old 04-03-2012, 07:08 AM
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Different in the UK if you want to go to the States, here you will either be searched or go through a body scanner before boarding.

They are pretty thorough boys over here.

I do prefer it with all the security measures in place as we have over here when travelling as yes, it does actually make me feel a little safer.
 
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  #23  
Old 04-03-2012, 07:16 AM
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Originally Posted by G10 View Post
Different in the UK if you want to go to the States, here you will either be searched or go through a body scanner before boarding.
Is that the TSA, though?
My sister (and others) have reported that they weren't subject to TSA screenings (the full body scanner or the pat down) but they did go through the usual metal detectors that were in place long before 9/11.
 
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  #24  
Old 04-03-2012, 11:55 AM
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Not sure if it the TSA. I think it is a collaboration between the UK and US systems.


We (in certain airports) have the body scanner which is faster and more thorough than being searched and something that is a good thing as it speeds up the process.


If for some reason one doesn't want to go through the scanner, then you can opt for being searched and metal detector.
 
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  #25  
Old 04-03-2012, 03:05 PM
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I think the government would have you believe that we are safer a la the DHS, the Patriot Act, and the NDAA and they let us all know this via the media. However, eluding to safety through legislation and another bureaucratic departments, doesn't necessarily equate to more 'safety.'
I would also say that many people 'think' we are safer due to all the supposed safety measures and precautions and procedures in place. However, whether we are really safer remains to be seen. Is the lack of major terrorist attacks on American soil due to the increased measures or just a coincidence? I'd rather not find out.
 
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  #26  
Old 04-04-2012, 02:55 PM
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united states of america is no longer a safer place to live, many people view the US as an imperialist who impose its will to many countries. Going against its will would result in sanctions. In almost all military conflicts in the modern world, america is always there, why is that? because america loves to meddle at everybody else's affair and that is not good. If america wants a peaceful existence then try to solve conficts through negotiations and compromises and not militarily.
 
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  #27  
Old 04-04-2012, 04:53 PM
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I perceive sanctions as a negotiating tool and a form of diplomacy. Would you rather have sanctions or bombs?

I do agree we may be taking actions in places that aren't worth the effort.
 
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  #28  
Old 04-05-2012, 01:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gracemary View Post
united states of america is no longer a safer place to live, many people view the US as an imperialist who impose its will to many countries. Going against its will would result in sanctions. In almost all military conflicts in the modern world, america is always there, why is that? because america loves to meddle at everybody else's affair and that is not good. If america wants a peaceful existence then try to solve conficts through negotiations and compromises and not militarily.
I find it a bit ironic that people from other nations view our government as one that imposes its will on other nations. In fact, yes, it does ... I'd have to agree with Script that sometimes we get involved where we shouldn't.

What I find ironic is that the government sticks its nose where it's not wanted in her own citizens' affairs as well.

I guess that's something I would like to see citizens of other countries understand. We are necessarily associated with the government of the country we live in, but it just may be that we have the same problems with our government as the rest of the world does.
 
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  #29  
Old 04-05-2012, 05:58 AM
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Originally Posted by ScriptMan View Post
I perceive sanctions as a negotiating tool and a form of diplomacy. Would you rather have sanctions or bombs?

I do agree we may be taking actions in places that aren't worth the effort.
Sanctions are an act of war.
If you doubt that, what do you think the US military response would be to another country freezing it's assets, preventing the US from doing business with other countries and enforcing that with a naval blockade around your country?

Diplomacy is not the goal of the sanctions against Iran.
Inciting them and attempting to draw them into striking first in a war is the goal.
 
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  #30  
Old 04-05-2012, 02:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zap View Post
Sanctions are an act of war.
If you doubt that, what do you think the US military response would be to another country freezing it's assets, preventing the US from doing business with other countries and enforcing that with a naval blockade around your country?
Maybe I am the confused one. I will ask in lieu of looking it up right now. Aren't there various levels of sanctions? Is freezing assets always a part of sanctions.

Naval blockades I will concede are at least and act of intimidation. Though if they are done to prevent another country from taking military action I am not sure if they are an act of war or war avoidance.

I did not know we were taking about Iran in particular. The have been on my s-list in about 1978 so there isn't going to be much sympathy from me even if Israel nukes the place.
 
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  #31  
Old 04-05-2012, 04:56 PM
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I think that US citizens are starting to feel that they don't like their government telling them what to do. Imagine how the people in other countries feel when the US government is telling them to do things the US way, to conform. You shouldn't be surprised to find that they like to do things their way and will actually fight back, if possible to keep it that way.

Sanctions hurt the people not the government, they make poor people poorer when countries can no longer develop and which potential war exactly have they prevented.
 
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  #32  
Old 04-05-2012, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G10 View Post
Not sure if it the TSA. I think it is a collaboration between the UK and US systems.


We (in certain airports) have the body scanner which is faster and more thorough than being searched and something that is a good thing as it speeds up the process.


If for some reason one doesn't want to go through the scanner, then you can opt for being searched and metal detector.
I travel as much as I can. I flew before 911, I was in the air on 911, and I have flown a lot after 911.

All I can say is the the scans, metal detectors, pat downs may make the normal passenger feel safer but would be no hindrance to a determined murderer. I've had mini nail files confiscated but get on board with a set of keys. Last trip I had half a bottle of mosquito repellent confiscated departing Bali that had been let through when departing Brisbane and arriving Bali. I found later I had inadvertently left a bottle of water in my carry on (big no-no) which wasn't confiscated. I also took some liquid medication (I had a doctor's certificate, but it wasn't needed) and it was 200ml so over the limit in the carry on. They glanced at the bottle and handed it back.

Now if I was a murderer why wouldn't I get a medical prescription, empty the bottle, put in bomby stuff and blow up the plane. Too easy.

Not forgetting the fact that groups of people travel on buses and trains without any of these safety precautions but are easy targets for murderers.

Now if all these scans and stuff make you feel safer then go with the flow but I think terrorism has won.
 
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  #33  
Old 04-05-2012, 06:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScriptMan View Post
Maybe I am the confused one. I will ask in lieu of looking it up right now. Aren't there various levels of sanctions? Is freezing assets always a part of sanctions.
I guess that depends upon who's applying the sanctions.
It used to be that sanctions meant "I refuse to trade with you." but lately, it seems to mean "I refuse to allow anyone to trade with you.".

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScriptMan View Post
Naval blockades I will concede are at least and act of intimidation. Though if they are done to prevent another country from taking military action I am not sure if they are an act of war or war avoidance.
Let's be clear. Iran has not threatened the US. And even if they had, which, I reiterate, they haven't. But even if they had, it's clear to all, including the US, that they pose no threat to the US. (Militarily speaking)
No. This blockade is meant to prevent Iran from doing business with anyone, anywhere.
Perhaps the US wouldn't mind being told who to do business with, but my bet is that they would consider those actions against it, an act of war.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScriptMan View Post
I did not know we were taking about Iran in particular. The have been on my s-list in about 1978 so there isn't going to be much sympathy from me even if Israel nukes the place.
Surely there are some innocents in Iran, somewhere?
 
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  #34  
Old 04-06-2012, 05:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zap View Post
I guess that depends upon who's applying the sanctions.
It used to be that sanctions meant "I refuse to trade with you." but lately, it seems to mean "I refuse to allow anyone to trade with you.".


Let's be clear. Iran has not threatened the US. And even if they had, which, I reiterate, they haven't. But even if they had, it's clear to all, including the US, that they pose no threat to the US. (Militarily speaking)
No. This blockade is meant to prevent Iran from doing business with anyone, anywhere.
Perhaps the US wouldn't mind being told who to do business with, but my bet is that they would consider those actions against it, an act of war.

And here I thought we we there to keep Iran from closing the straits thusly interrupting the free flow of oil on the world market. Since 30-40% of the worlds oil flows through there I sorta assumed we had a valid reason for doing that.

Iran under Komanic (intentional) caused the US plenty of grief and lives. Us elephants have long memories. We kiss it till we get close enough to kick it. I think Jimmy Carter puckered more than enough for Komanic.

I think when a country says we aren't doing business with you and we aren't doing business with any country that does business with you that is diplomatic pressure not an act of war. We are not forcing any country at gunpoint to sanction Iran. Every country is free to choose the side where their best interests are.

Last edited by ScriptMan; 04-06-2012 at 05:20 AM.
 
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  #35  
Old 04-06-2012, 06:27 AM
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Originally Posted by ScriptMan View Post
And here I thought we we there to keep Iran from closing the straits thusly interrupting the free flow of oil on the world market. Since 30-40% of the worlds oil flows through there I sorta assumed we had a valid reason for doing that.

Iran under Komanic (intentional) caused the US plenty of grief and lives. Us elephants have long memories. We kiss it till we get close enough to kick it. I think Jimmy Carter puckered more than enough for Komanic.

I think when a country says we aren't doing business with you and we aren't doing business with any country that does business with you that is diplomatic pressure not an act of war. We are not forcing any country at gunpoint to sanction Iran. Every country is free to choose the side where their best interests are.
If you remember the chain of events, the threat from Iran to close the straights of Hormuz did not materialize until US warships were already enroute to block the flow of Iranian oil, which sounds more like "You can't do business with anyone" to me.

If the US threatened to block Canadian exports to other countries, then I would support any efforts to dispense with that blockade. And I DO mean ANY efforts.

What is taking place here, is one country trying to impose its will on another country and trying to do the same with several other countries to make that happen.
In the end, it is the Iranian people who will suffer most and I just can't believe that they're all as evil as you seem to think they are.
As unpalatable as the concept might be, the US has no more right to tell Iran whether or not to pursue nuclear capabilities than your gun toting neighbour has to tell you whether or not you can own guns. It's hypocritical and none of your neighbour's damn business.
 
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  #36  
Old 04-06-2012, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Zap View Post
If the US threatened to block Canadian exports to other countries, then I would support any efforts to dispense with that blockade. And I DO mean ANY efforts.
[YT]Ety2FEHQgwM[/YT]

Damned Canadian bullies.
 
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  #37  
Old 04-06-2012, 10:14 AM
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I'd like to respond to the original question about whether or not America is safer

I think the fact that we go to malls, movie theaters, and sporting events without worrying about a terrorist bomb is a pretty good indicator that we are safe(r) in America - especially compared to other countries where there aren't public trash cans because you can hide bombs in them.

Or compared to places where terrorists lob bombs on civilians on a regular basis or bomb the metros.

Anyone who hates America's policeman mentality needs to take a second look at history regarding the mass exterminations perpetrated by communism and fascism. Can we really say we want Hitler, Mussoline, Mao, Lenin, Stalin, Hussein, etc etc in power? You know, France thought that Hitler would be happy with Poland and stepped aside and tried negotiation and diplomacy... look what happened next. (Let's not forget the Polish people who fought Hitler's tanks with swords. I guess the French and other European countries were noble to stay out of their business?)

I have an opinion that any American who is completely dissatisfied with (hates) America and doesn't feel safe should visit other countries to see what other people put up with on a regular basis. <smile>

Maybe, it's time for you guys to come to Ethiopia with me up near the Eritrean border.

We can all be involved in the political process to effect positive change. Apathy will just let the status quo continue. The ripple of a pebble in the pond extends far beyond the pebble's reach.

As a side note, I do think I'd feel less safe on the streets of Chicago than I do in Texas. Primarily due to other factors that are off topic here - and unrelated to terrorism or America's foreign policy.
 
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  #38  
Old 04-06-2012, 02:47 PM
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Fourteen Defining Characteristics Of Fascism

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Dr. Lawrence Britt has examined the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia) and several Latin American regimes. Britt found 14 defining characteristics common to each:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread
domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.
#1,2,3,4,6,7,8,9,12 and 13 are descriptive enough of the USA today.

How can the USA be a better alternative to fascism when it is clearly engaging in it?

The dictator has not yet shown his face, but everything is in place for the day he decides to.


Just an obvservation from outside your country, but if you want America to be safer, you could go a long way towards making that happen by making more friends and less enemies around the world, allowing your citizens more real liberty and less lip service to it and putting a stop to as much of the corruption within politics as you possibly can.

I believe your government's stance on Iran is going to play an integral part in the undoing of your nation. That, and the demise of the Federal Reserve, which is quickly running out of options. The BRICS nations (Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa) are already taking steps to create their own currency for trading, with the goal of dumping the US dollar and I'm pretty sure we will see at least 1 of those nations continue to buy oil from Iran after the deadline imposed by these sanctions. Together, they comprise almost half of the Earth's population and make up the new emerging economies. The US is still embroiled in the longest war in your history in Afghanistan, still reeling from the losses in Iraq, ignoring the failure to install democracy in Libya, attempting the same in Syria and now is talking tough with Iran??? Where does it end? And how does this all make the US safer?
 
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  #39  
Old 04-06-2012, 05:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zap View Post
Fourteen Defining Characteristics Of Fascism



#1,2,3,4,6,7,8,9,12 and 13 are descriptive enough of the USA today.

How can the USA be a better alternative to fascism when it is clearly engaging in it?

The dictator has not yet shown his face, but everything is in place for the day he decides to.


Just an obvservation from outside your country, but if you want America to be safer, you could go a long way towards making that happen by making more friends and less enemies around the world, allowing your citizens more real liberty and less lip service to it and putting a stop to as much of the corruption within politics as you possibly can.

I believe your government's stance on Iran is going to play an integral part in the undoing of your nation. That, and the demise of the Federal Reserve, which is quickly running out of options. The BRICS nations (Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa) are already taking steps to create their own currency for trading, with the goal of dumping the US dollar and I'm pretty sure we will see at least 1 of those nations continue to buy oil from Iran after the deadline imposed by these sanctions. Together, they comprise almost half of the Earth's population and make up the new emerging economies. The US is still embroiled in the longest war in your history in Afghanistan, still reeling from the losses in Iraq, ignoring the failure to install democracy in Libya, attempting the same in Syria and now is talking tough with Iran??? Where does it end? And how does this all make the US safer?
You need to start a new topic ... would love to see where people might go with so many things you raised here.

And I see quite a few of your points, and agree with some of them. (Pretty much the others I'm just not knowledgeable enough about to agree or disagree.)

You forgot #14 ... that's going on here too. Or at least we're seeing a lot of push in that direction.

I don't really see religion and government as intertwined though. I'd be curious why you think so, but I think too much discussion of that could detract from a much bigger and better discussion you've suggested ...
 
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  #40  
Old 04-06-2012, 07:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zap
How can the USA be a better alternative to fascism when it is clearly engaging in it?
I made a similar point in another thread recently. People who would bristle at the idea that they have Fascist leanings will stand there and espouse doctrine that is purely Fascist in its composition... they just don't realize it.

Yes, there has been a distinct trend towards Fascist doctrines becoming the law of the land. The recent law about "designated free speech zones" comes to mind... which is a clear violation of our constitution, and it passed with bi-partisan support, was signed by the president, and barely drew a hint of dissension from the media in general.

Then about a week later there was a presidential decree that set up the legal ability for the president to unilaterally decide a situtation required him to commandeer all production in the US, and again you heard a few yelps from Fox and not much from anyone else.

Add to that the guys that'd gladly espouse door to door searches to make sure only cops and the military could legally possess weapons... and we could end up with a bona-fide police state in a heartbeat. Brings to mind that book that I think you mentioned the other day where the guy living in Germany explained how the public inched step by step from a Republic to the totalitarian Nazi regime.
 
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