Webmaster Forum

Go Back   Webmaster Forum > The Webmaster Forums > Forum Lobby > Controversial Social Issues

Controversial Social Issues Discussions concerning controversial social issues. Topics include politics, religion, culture, social and economic issues, etc. Respect required at all times.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Share |
  #21  
Old 09-21-2009, 05:43 AM
zero zero is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: 08-01-09
Posts: 401
iTrader: 0 / 0%
For me I don't know what happen in America today. I read some thread here in Political Section about Democratic Socialism.

The question to my self if "Socialism" in America can lead to Marxism?

If US becomes a Marxism, I believe it have effect to whole world and the rising of Marxism in different part of a whole world. When Marxism is rise, the freedom of each people will disappear. How many people will sacrifice his life to fight and defend the freedom against Marxism?
 
Reply With Quote

Advertisement

Advertisement

  #22  
Old 09-21-2009, 07:43 AM
meshleman3 meshleman3 is offline
Contributing Member
 
Join Date: 09-04-08
Posts: 99
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Scott View Post
LOL! The two sentences, one after another, contradict each other. Too funny.
Yeah, I was in a hurry and typed that too fast. I meant to say, I have certainly done a lot of traveling, met a lot of different people and seen a lot of different cultures but I did not travel everywhere possible. And I was basing my comment that, American's are the most backward people, off this experience.
 
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 09-21-2009, 08:15 AM
meshleman3 meshleman3 is offline
Contributing Member
 
Join Date: 09-04-08
Posts: 99
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Quote:
Originally Posted by m42 View Post
You appear to be a bit confused.

What exactly is your sample size?

How would you define backwards?

What is your basis for comparison?
Actually I am not confused at all. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I stated mine. I call it like I see it. And I don't care who likes it.

My sample size would be about 75% of Americans that I have grown up with and met in my lifetime. There are a lot of "non-backward" Americans too but the majority of Americans are screwed up one way or another.

I would define backwards as being strange, not normal or opposite compared to how things must be. I think you get my point.

I base my opinion on many things. One of them being that the majority of Americans pump themselves full of prescription drugs for just about any ailment or condition. The majority of the world takes natural remedies for their conditions. How many class action lawsuits will it take till Americans wake up and see this is not right? Some families even have the whole medicine cabinet full of this crap. There is a drug for anything nowadays. America is supposed to be so advanced medically but yet American citizens are some of the most unhealthiest people in the world! Things like Autism, mental retardation, diabetes, and the countless other ailments affecting the American people are mostly concentrated in America compared to the rest of the world.

Another point is the large obesity problem America faces. Honestly, I have never seen it so bad other than in America. Here young kids and even babies are obese. The American mentality is to stuff their faces with junk food and limit the amount of exercise as much as possible. For example, let's say somebody needed something from the store which was two blocks away. Well, the common American would rather jump in their car and drive two blocks than to walk it or ride a bike there. These same American's are the ones who complain about the cost of gas too!

Or how about American's being "backwards" on the political scene. When George W. went to war with Iraq, he had the support of most of the American people and this included both parties, Democrats and Republicans. Everything was fine and the American people were so arrogant and proud that the war was going to be over so fast. Years down the road, these same American people forgot that they had supported the war and started hating Bush. Why? Because of the cost of the war and the economy. If the war would have been won and over fast and the economy would not have been strained, the American people wouldn't have cared. What's the sense in all that?

The reasons for this war were fabricated. American's started this war without the approval of the U.N. and some of it's closest allies but yet America had the bulls to expect other countries to lend a hand to help!

To add to this, Americans elect a president who is unproven and untested and that has minimal experience. Why? Because they like how he speaks and looks. The German people liked how Hitler spoke too and look where that got them....

I could probably write a whole book on this subject so please save me the time.
 
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 09-21-2009, 10:12 AM
Franc Tireur Franc Tireur is offline
Contributing Member
 
Join Date: 08-15-06
Posts: 10,109
iTrader: 11 / 100%
Some foreigners critize America or Americans but they are all happy when things turn badly to be helped by the US and Americans.

Do Americans are always right? I don't think so. But they need respect as any other countries. If they are wrong that's the allies duties to tell them. That's why your criticizes should be construtive and not throwing everything like you did. It is not only pathetic but also anti-Americanism.

And please comparing Americans with nazis is unacceptable.
 
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 09-22-2009, 03:30 AM
zero zero is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: 08-01-09
Posts: 401
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Quote:
Originally Posted by Natural Elements View Post
And please comparing Americans with nazis is unacceptable.
I agree, American is still American and Nazi still is Nazi. Yes, all Americans are came from different races, different cultures and different religions are welcome to America. The believes of each American is still one that called "freedom".
 
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 09-22-2009, 08:49 PM
m42 m42 is offline
v7n Mentor
 
Join Date: 03-23-08
Location: Singapore
Posts: 1,871
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Quote:
Originally Posted by meshleman3
Actually I am not confused at all. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I stated mine. I call it like I see it. And I don't care who likes it.
You'd conceded to John Scott that you'd written your previous response in a hurry. I'd say that's a pretty good indication that you'd realized your previous response had contradicted itself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by meshleman3
My sample size would be about 75% of Americans that I have grown up with and met in my lifetime. There are a lot of "non-backward" Americans too but the majority of Americans are screwed up one way or another.
Consider getting out more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by meshleman3
I would define backwards as being strange, not normal or opposite compared to how things must be. I think you get my point.
No. I don't get your point. I don't believe things "must" be a certain way. I believe forcing people to behave a certain way is a direct violation of their individual freedoms. Perhaps you can tell me how things should be and how you believe those behaviours should be enforced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by meshleman3
I base my opinion on many things. One of them being that the majority of Americans pump themselves full of prescription drugs for just about any ailment or condition. The majority of the world takes natural remedies for their conditions. How many class action lawsuits will it take till Americans wake up and see this is not right? Some families even have the whole medicine cabinet full of this crap. There is a drug for anything nowadays. America is supposed to be so advanced medically but yet American citizens are some of the most unhealthiest people in the world!
Would that be a problem with drug availability or loopholes in the legal system that allow for gratuitous court actions?

You say the majority of Americans pump themselves full of prescription drugs. There are a slew of reasons those statistics are high. For example, how do you feel about oral contraception?

At 77 years, the US is still in the top quarter for life expectancy. I see no statistically significant deviation from other developed nations.

I know quite a few Americans as well. Many of the ones I know would rather ride out their minor ailments than pop a pill. They also avoid "natural" remedies, many of which have little scientific evidence to back their efficacy claims.

You say the rest of the world takes natural remedies....

Here in Singapore, there are at least four drugstores within a quarter mile radius of my house. Perhaps you can explain the economics of how those stores happen to remain open?

Americans are perceived as advanced medically. That perception must mean something. Between 60,000 and 85,000 medical tourists visited the US for treatment in 2008. I can tell you that in my experience, the medical care I've received in the US has been superior to treatments I've received in other countries. My sample size? I've visited over 50 countries and lived in about 30.

Quote:
Originally Posted by meshleman3
Things like Autism, mental retardation, diabetes, and the countless other ailments affecting the American people are mostly concentrated in America compared to the rest of the world.
You might want to take a look at the numbers behind your assertions. Your statement that these ailments "are mostly concentrated in America compared to the rest of the world" is inaccurate. The statistics for all of those ailments are available online. Consider:

The top 5 most populated countries for 2009 are:
(Note: The order has not changed since 2007)

China - 1,332,670,710
India - 1,166,925,850
US - 307,162,899
Indonesia - 230,729,491
Brazil - 191,466,483

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population

The top 5 counties in 2007 with a REPORTED prevalence of diabetes amongst the adult population are:

India - 40.9 million
China - 39.8 million
US - 19.2 million
Russia - 9.6 million
Germany - 7.4 million

http://www.idf.org/sound_bites

The top 5 countries with a REPORTED prevalence of autism are:
(Note: Calculated from prevalence rates in some cases.)

China - 1,100,000
India - 2,000,000
US - 1,500,000
UK - 650,000
Mexico - 150,000

http://www.autism-society.org/site/P...orld_incidence
http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/a/auti...ts-country.htm

Overall, the stats still seem very much in line with population growth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by meshleman3
If the war would have been won and over fast and the economy would not have been strained, the American people wouldn't have cared. What's the sense in all that?
The assertion that the economy is strained because of the war is a somewhat inaccurate one. The seeds for this particular economic collapse were planted long before the first Iraq war. You might want to read up on the banking acts of the 1930s. The equal opportunity housing acts of the 1970s. The implementation of oversight for the subprime sector in the late 80's, the blatant revocation of that oversight, and government-forced allocation of subprime funds via two very large banks in the early 90's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by meshleman3
To add to this, Americans elect a president who is unproven and untested and that has minimal experience. Why? Because they like how he speaks and looks. The German people liked how Hitler spoke too and look where that got them....
Not going to argue that. You're right. The Obamessiah appealed to emotion in lieu of logic. When questioned about certain facts, he often stammered moronically.

I should mention however, that even here in Asia, the majority of the people I've met love Obama. When asked why, they can't provide a rational response. It's just "hip" to love him. Singling out Americans for this behaviour in a thread where you're effectively claiming everyone else in the world is more intelligent is somewhat absurd.

Quote:
Originally Posted by meshleman3
I could probably write a whole book on this subject so please save me the time.
I normally wouldn't respond to such ignorant and hateful vitriol. I was just curious as to why you were so quick to throw the rest of your countrymen under the bus.

I wonder if on some level you actually believe by doing so you'll get brownie points with those really awesome foreign dudes.

I'm all for opinions. What you're doing is attempting to pass opinions off as fact. That's a big no-no if you actually plan on writing a book.
 
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 09-23-2009, 09:00 AM
meshleman3 meshleman3 is offline
Contributing Member
 
Join Date: 09-04-08
Posts: 99
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Quote:
Originally Posted by m42 View Post
You'd conceded to John Scott that you'd written your previous response in a hurry. I'd say that's a pretty good indication that you'd realized your previous response had contradicted itself.


Umm... Yeah, the words didn't come out right. What's your point? When I said that I hadn't yet visited the "rest" of the world I should have said "all" or "whole".


Quote:
Originally Posted by m42 View Post
Consider getting out more.
I get out a lot actually. It's why I made my assertion in the first place. I also mentioned that I have done quite a bit of traveling. Not just internationally but in the U.S. too.


Quote:
Originally Posted by m42 View Post
No. I don't get your point. I don't believe things "must" be a certain way. I believe forcing people to behave a certain way is a direct violation of their individual freedoms. Perhaps you can tell me how things should be and how you believe those behaviours should be enforced.
People were not designed for total individual freedom. If everybody had total individual freedom this world would be in anarchy in no time. Individual freedom should revolve around God and love. Also, I never said anything about "forcing" people to be a certain way. I was describing how I think Americans are backwards.


Quote:
Originally Posted by m42 View Post
You say the majority of Americans pump themselves full of prescription drugs. There are a slew of reasons those statistics are high. For example, how do you feel about oral contraception?
Yes, this is correct. There are a number of reasons these statistics are so high. There is a pill for just about everything! From the littlest symptom to a disease....there is a pill for it. Oral contraceptions are just another type of pill that are filled with harmful chemicals and are meant to fix a situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by m42 View Post
At 77 years, the US is still in the top quarter for life expectancy. I see no statistically significant deviation from other developed nations.
I wasn't only referring to life expectancy. I was referring to the total picture. Americans are simply an unhealthy people in general. Walk in any American city and I will give you 30 seconds before you either spot somebody mentally retarded, obese, or who is afflicted with some other mental ailment. And these are just things that can be physically observed. There are other conditions like diabetes, cholesterol levels, etc... that can not be physically seen. Now if you were to go walk in Europe or Asia you would not see so many people like this. Also, as an example, if you took an average Russian man and an average American man and tested them in all things, the Russian would beat the American in everything. And by that I mean speed, strength, mental compacities, and everything else. And the reason why??? A main part of it has to do with the prescription drugs that have been in Americans lives for decades now. These drugs have so many side effects that people don't realize. And even if they did know it, nothing would be done about it. Why? Because of one thing- money!

Quote:
Originally Posted by m42 View Post
I know quite a few Americans as well. Many of the ones I know would rather ride out their minor ailments than pop a pill. They also avoid "natural" remedies, many of which have little scientific evidence to back their efficacy claims.
I know Americans like this as well. You will have to put up a better agrument than that And the natural remedies always work better and with little or no side effects too. Apple Cider Vinegar for depression works great! There are literally hundreds of natural remedies that can be taken and work great. Are you trying to deny everything I said about prescription drugs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by m42 View Post
You say the rest of the world takes natural remedies....

Here in Singapore, there are at least four drugstores within a quarter mile radius of my house. Perhaps you can explain the economics of how those stores happen to remain open?
The economics of it is quite simple. These stores sell their drugs (which probably come from America) and they make profit.


Quote:
Originally Posted by m42 View Post
Americans are perceived as advanced medically. That perception must mean something. Between 60,000 and 85,000 medical tourists visited the US for treatment in 2008. I can tell you that in my experience, the medical care I've received in the US has been superior to treatments I've received in other countries. My sample size? I've visited over 50 countries and lived in about 30.
It depends on the treatments you received. There is no doubt that Americans are more advanced medically than other countries. Too bad though that considering all this advancement, Americans are still are very unhealthy.


Quote:
Originally Posted by m42 View Post
You might want to take a look at the numbers behind your assertions. Your statement that these ailments "are mostly concentrated in America compared to the rest of the world" is inaccurate. The statistics for all of those ailments are available online. Consider:

The top 5 most populated countries for 2009 are:
(Note: The order has not changed since 2007)

China - 1,332,670,710
India - 1,166,925,850
US - 307,162,899
Indonesia - 230,729,491
Brazil - 191,466,483

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population

The top 5 counties in 2007 with a REPORTED prevalence of diabetes amongst the adult population are:

India - 40.9 million
China - 39.8 million
US - 19.2 million
Russia - 9.6 million
Germany - 7.4 million

http://www.idf.org/sound_bites

The top 5 countries with a REPORTED prevalence of autism are:
(Note: Calculated from prevalence rates in some cases.)

China - 1,100,000
India - 2,000,000
US - 1,500,000
UK - 650,000
Mexico - 150,000

http://www.autism-society.org/site/P...orld_incidence
http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/a/auti...ts-country.htm

Overall, the stats still seem very much in line with population growth.
If you're going to try and prove me wrong you better site statistics from another source than, wikipedia.org. There information doesn't have to be correct it just has to be verifiable. Give me, and everybody else reading this, some international and trusted sources. Since you claim to get around so much, this should be easy for you to do.


Quote:
Originally Posted by m42 View Post
The assertion that the economy is strained because of the war is a somewhat inaccurate one. The seeds for this particular economic collapse were planted long before the first Iraq war. You might want to read up on the banking acts of the 1930s. The equal opportunity housing acts of the 1970s. The implementation of oversight for the subprime sector in the late 80's, the blatant revocation of that oversight, and government-forced allocation of subprime funds via two very large banks in the early 90's.
Yes, this is correct. The Iraq war did in fact strain the U.S. economy though. It was only after the Iraq war that things got really bad all of a sudden even though the seeds were planted before the war. Again, I was giving an example of how Americans are "backwards". Are you trying to deny everything I said concerning this war?

Quote:
Originally Posted by m42 View Post
Not going to argue that. You're right. The Obamessiah appealed to emotion in lieu of logic. When questioned about certain facts, he often stammered moronically.

I should mention however, that even here in Asia, the majority of the people I've met love Obama. When asked why, they can't provide a rational response. It's just "hip" to love him.
Well, at least we agree on something then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by m42 View Post
Singling out Americans for this behaviour in a thread where you're effectively claiming everyone else in the world is more intelligent is somewhat absurd.
It's good to know I'm being effective. And by no means and I trying to say every other country in this world is perfect or something. Every country has their issues. There are also good and bad things in every country.


Quote:
Originally Posted by m42 View Post
I normally wouldn't respond to such ignorant and hateful vitriol. I was just curious as to why you were so quick to throw the rest of your countrymen under the bus.
I just call it like I see it. That's all. And how I see it is that America is on the wrong course with many things. It has nothing to do with my countrymen. I am a citizen of Earth.
 
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 09-23-2009, 09:38 AM
Advertise Advertise is offline
Contributing Member
 
Join Date: 09-15-09
Posts: 154
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Going back to the liberties we enjoy in this country, President Gadhafi just spoke to the UN... HE excercised freedom of speech, although in his own country his own people are denied this RIGHT!
 
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 09-23-2009, 07:37 PM
m42 m42 is offline
v7n Mentor
 
Join Date: 03-23-08
Location: Singapore
Posts: 1,871
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Quote:
Originally Posted by meshleman3
Umm... Yeah, the words didn't come out right. What's your point? When I said that I hadn't yet visited the "rest" of the world I should have said "all" or "whole".
No real point. I wanted to see if you were gracious enough to simply admit a mistake, or whether you'd lash out even if you were wrong. I have my answer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by meshleman3
I get out a lot actually. It's why I made my assertion in the first place. I also mentioned that I have done quite a bit of traveling. Not just internationally but in the U.S. too.
Somehow, I just don't believe you. I've seen your rants and arguments. You just sound inexperienced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by meshleman3
People were not designed for total individual freedom. If everybody had total individual freedom this world would be in anarchy in no time. Individual freedom should revolve around God and love. Also, I never said anything about "forcing" people to be a certain way. I was describing how I think Americans are backwards.
You dodged my question, but lets begin with, where did I say "total" individual freedom?

Total individual freedom reverts us to a state of Natural Law. For the record, we'd likely survive and propagate in that state as well, it just wouldn't be very pretty. Our species is quite capable of enduring states of both chaos and order.

I believe people have the right to their individual freedoms so long as their freedoms do not violate the individual freedoms of others. To be clear, I believe everyone in society is entitled to life, liberty, and property as defined by our social contract. Rights are defined when limits are set. Under the terms of a social contract, we agree to relinquish certain freedoms in return for protection and other freedoms.

That being said, you appear to have very strong opinions on how people should behave. I pose the original question:

Quote:
Originally Posted by m42
Perhaps you can tell me how things should be and how you believe those behaviours should be enforced.
Quote:
Originally Posted by meshleman3
Yes, this is correct. There are a number of reasons these statistics are so high. There is a pill for just about everything! From the littlest symptom to a disease....there is a pill for it. Oral contraceptions are just another type of pill that are filled with harmful chemicals and are meant to fix a situation.
What situation would that be? What natural remedy would you propose these women use instead? Condoms?

Do you understand that these contraceptives are used by women all over the world?

Quote:
Originally Posted by meshleman3
I wasn't only referring to life expectancy. I was referring to the total picture. Americans are simply an unhealthy people in general. Walk in any American city and I will give you 30 seconds before you either spot somebody mentally retarded, obese, or who is afflicted with some other mental ailment. And these are just things that can be physically observed. There are other conditions like diabetes, cholesterol levels, etc... that can not be physically seen. Now if you were to go walk in Europe or Asia you would not see so many people like this.
Yikes! That's really ignorant.

If Americans were really so unhealthy, the life expectancy would not be in line with the other developed nations. Just because you perceive Americans to be more unhealthy than their overseas counterparts, doesn't make it true.

I challenge you to walk outside right now and go spot the retard within 30 seconds. Are you familiar with the term "exaggeration?" How about "fabrication?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by meshleman3
Also, as an example, if you took an average Russian man and an average American man and tested them in all things, the Russian would beat the American in everything. And by that I mean speed, strength, mental compacities, and everything else. A main part of it has to do with the prescription drugs that have been in Americans lives for decades now. These drugs have so many side effects that people don't realize. And even if they did know it, nothing would be done about it. Why? Because of one thing- money!
Prove it. Instead of pulling useless and unfounded generalizations out of thin air, show me the study. You'll sound less ignorant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by meshleman3
And the natural remedies always work better and with little or no side effects too. Apple Cider Vinegar for depression works great! There are literally hundreds of natural remedies that can be taken and work great. Are you trying to deny everything I said about prescription drugs?
I'd be careful about saying "natural remedies always work better." Show me the clinical study where apple cider vinegar definitively assists with depression. By this I mean, non-placebo, real results for depression.

I am saying that you may be more than a bit misguided about prescription drugs. Your view on the world seems very black and white. I don't believe you realize how drugs are made. For example, look into digitalis. I'd be careful how much stock you put into natural remedies.

I'm less inclined to believe you. Much of what you've stated so far has no basis in scientific reality. Some of it has just been blatantly refuted by numbers you've refused to research on your own.

Quote:
Originally Posted by meshleman3
The economics of it is quite simple. These stores sell their drugs (which probably come from America) and they make profit.
You've made yet another logical leap. Allow me to enlighten you a bit:

GlaxoSmithKline is based in England. Bayer is based in Germany. AstraZenica is based in London and Sweden. Hoffman-LaRocha is based in Switzerland. Novartis is based in Switzerland. Sanofi Aventis is based in France. At the top of the charts we have US-based Johnson and Johnson - who's revenues are derived from more than just pharmaceuticals, and Pfizer.

As Americans don't even make a dent in the Singaporean population, one might have to concede that those pesky, non-American Singaporeans are popping prescription drugs as well. *gasp*

I really suggest you educate yourself instead of making useless and unfounded assumptions, and blaming the US for everything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by meshleman3
If you're going to try and prove me wrong you better site statistics from another source than, wikipedia.org. There information doesn't have to be correct it just has to be verifiable. Give me, and everybody else reading this, some international and trusted sources. Since you claim to get around so much, this should be easy for you to do.
Sorry kiddo. I have proven you wrong. Wikipedia was only cited for the population listing. I challenge you to refute the population numbers with a radically different set. You'll note that Wikipedia lists it's sources at the bottom of the page. Have at it. The ones for population are quite valid.

The numbers I posted for autism and diabetes are also quite valid. The organizations who posted those numbers are well known, respected organizations. I challenge you to refute them as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by meshleman3
Yes, this is correct. The Iraq war did in fact strain the U.S. economy though. It was only after the Iraq war that things got really bad all of a sudden even though the seeds were planted before the war.
Correlation is not equal to causation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by meshleman3
Again, I was giving an example of how Americans are "backwards".
Yes, we've pretty much seen that your examples aren't exactly based in truth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by meshleman3
It's good to know I'm being effective.
*ahem* My response was written sarcastically.

Quote:
Originally Posted by meshleman3
Every country has their issues. There are also good and bad things in every country. And by no means and I trying to say every other country in this world is perfect or something.
No, you're merely failing to argue that Americans are more "backward" than people in every other country.

Last edited by m42; 09-23-2009 at 07:44 PM. Reason: I kan speeke inglish. ;)
 
Reply With Quote
Go Back   Webmaster Forum > The Webmaster Forums > Forum Lobby > Controversial Social Issues

Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
How to get traffic from outsite Americas madcaptains SEO Forum 6 12-30-2008 04:22 PM
Decent Intersitial Advertiser? Oliver Webmaster Revenue 0 08-28-2008 03:26 AM
decent podcasts? I like pie Webmaster Revenue 6 11-16-2006 06:33 AM
Looking for some decent UK hosting G10 Web Hosting Forum 19 02-25-2006 08:13 PM


V7N Network
Get exposure! V7N I Love Photography V7N SEO Blog V7N Directory


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:27 PM.
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited.
Copyright © 2003 - 2018 VIX-WomensForum LLC