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  #21  
Old 08-18-2013, 10:46 AM
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Jesus and Maria seem to be pretty popular south of the border and I don't see any problem with it.
 
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  #22  
Old 08-18-2013, 03:14 PM
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Jesus and Maria seem to be pretty popular south of the border and I don't see any problem with it.
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well everyone with the name "Jesus" needs to change it as well!
These comparisons aren't really apt. Using the versions of the names that we use today for the sake of simplicity, both "Jesus" and "Mary" were common names even during the events written about in the New Testement and have continued to be so. That's why I suspect Christians don't take issue with them.

On the other hand, "Messiah" was a title of sorts, as the judge in the case pointed out, although I don't think that exactly does the signifigance of the term justice. For many people it remains a term/title filled with signifigant and exclusive meaning.

That makes the comparison of "Jesus", "Mary", and "Messiah" a case of apples and oranges for people of the Christian faith, and probably Jewish faith as well.

Having said that, I'm not sure what the judge should have done. I'm a bit torn over it for various reasons.

Billy
 
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  #23  
Old 08-19-2013, 06:16 PM
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That makes the comparison of "Jesus", "Mary", and "Messiah" a case of apples and oranges for people of the Christian faith
I am Christian, and I wouldn't say it's apples to oranges.
 
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  #24  
Old 08-19-2013, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by seotech View Post
I do. Adolf Hitler is really just a name... The real Adolf Hitler is long dead. Giving a child that name won't turn him into him.
Ok, lets have a short thought process here for a second..

1, Neo Nazi parents,
2, Child brought up by neo Nazi parents,
3, Child named Adolf Hitler

It may not turn the child into Hitler but by heck one can see the seeds of racism sown here and this child is going to be brought up and hated by so many other nationalities that there is a high chance that the child will hate them back.

This is more than poor judgement. This is ruining some child's life and subjecting the child to mass hatred well before it probably understands what racist hatred is. So in this case, for the childs sake, if I were judging over this, I would have probably forced the parents to change it.
 
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  #25  
Old 08-19-2013, 06:35 PM
imbilly imbilly is offline
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I am Christian, and I wouldn't say it's apples to oranges.
None the less, it's not a valid comparison.
 
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  #26  
Old 08-19-2013, 07:29 PM
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None the less, it's not a valid comparison.
LOL. Your error is in stating as objective a subjective opinion. What the words "Jesus" and "Maria" and "Messiah" represent in your mind isn't the same as those words represent in any other minds. No two conceptual constructions can ever be identical.

In your mind, apples and oranges. I'm sure it feels like the objective truth, but it's still just in your mind.
 
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  #27  
Old 08-20-2013, 05:23 AM
imbilly imbilly is offline
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John,

What I put forward was a suggestion as to why people that are offended by naming a child "Messiah' may not be offended by naming someone "Jesus" or "Mary".

There isn't anything "silly" about their thinking, for them the terms "Jesus" and "Mary" just aren't equivalent to "Messiah" and I've already explained why.

Quote:
Your error is in stating as objective a subjective opinion. What the words "Jesus" and "Maria" and "Messiah" represent in your mind isn't the same as those words represent in any other minds.
And your error is in not reading what I wrote carefully. I never stated what any of those terms represent in my mind. I was stating what I suspect is in the minds of those people that are offended by naming someone "Messiah" but don't seem to be offended by naming someone "Jesus" or "Mary".


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n your mind, apples and oranges. I'm sure it feels like the objective truth, but it's still just in your mind.
Actually, John, I was trying to put myself into someone else's mind, understand their thinking, rather than just dismiss them as silly or hypocritical.

Since you seem to place such a high value on objectivity, that's something you might want to consider doing as well.

Billy
 
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  #28  
Old 08-20-2013, 12:24 PM
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What I put forward was a suggestion as to why people that are offended by naming a child "Messiah' may not be offended by naming someone "Jesus" or "Mary".
And it was a very good suggestion, too. I am sure some people are offended for the reason that you suggested. No argument there.

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There isn't anything "silly" about their thinking, for them the terms "Jesus" and "Mary" just aren't equivalent to "Messiah" and I've already explained why.
You mean to say, to your their thinking isn't silly. To me, anybody who is offended by a name is silly. See how that works?
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And your error is in not reading what I wrote carefully.
What did I not read carefully?

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I never stated what any of those terms represent in my mind.
I never said that you did state what those things represent in your mind. Here, let's see what I did say:

Quote:
In your mind, apples and oranges.
You did say, apples and oranges, and then I repeated that back to you as your opinion. In your mind, apples and oranges. You've already stated that. Would you like to retract it now?

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I was stating what I suspect is in the minds of those people that are offended by naming someone "Messiah" but don't seem to be offended by naming someone "Jesus" or "Mary".
Now you're off in the woods. Nobody is taking issue with your suggested reason for some people being offended. Do you see anybody taking issue with it? Even a single person? Nope. Not in this thread.

Ok? So let's not waste your time. Let's not waste my time. Childish games are fun when we are children, but let's be adults. mmk?

Now reread the posts in question, and let's think about this.

I expressed my belief that, to me, naming your child Jesus or Mary is similar to naming your child Messiah.

You said that "the comparison of "Jesus", "Mary", and "Messiah" a case of apples and oranges for people of the Christian faith."

You statement is rendered false by the simple fact that I am Christian, and it's not apples to oranges for me. After all, that was the particular inter-subjectivity you mentioned. It would be difficult to render your statement more false than it has already been rendered, since it was rendered 100% false.

What was your counterargument to that? In its entirety:

Quote:
None the less, it's not a valid comparison.
See, you stated as objective what you should have stated as an opinion. Yes, billy, to you it's not a valid comparison, because you have in mind some factor which attaches to "Jesus" and "Mary" but does not attach to "Messiah." So in your mind, it's not valid.

But, and this is the kicker, in somebody else's mind, there is some factor which attaches identically to "Jesus" and "Mary" and "Messiah," and that person is Christian, and that renders the comparison valid in their mind.

See how that works?

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Actually, John, I was trying to put myself into someone else's mind, understand their thinking, rather than just dismiss them as silly or hypocritical.
No, actually what you were doing was telling me that Christians think a certain way about Jesus and Mary names, and then declaring my subjective feelings to be objectively false.

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Since you seem to place such a high value on objectivity, that's something you might want to consider doing as well.
Brilliant statement. Since I value objectivity, I should consider subjective or inter-subjective feelings. Somehow the reasoning behind that statement eludes me. Could you please express it clearer? Like, start with the premise "John values objectivity" and then arrive at the conclusion "John should value subjective statements" through a line of reasoning. Really, it escapes me.
 
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  #29  
Old 08-20-2013, 01:30 PM
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In the end, it doesn't much matter what we THINK or if a name does or doesn't offend us.

It comes down to what the law is.

I may find out I am totally wrong, but I have a feeling the judge won't have a legal leg to stand on for this particular ruling.
 
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  #30  
Old 08-20-2013, 03:47 PM
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Hey John,

All your rhetorical gymnastics aside, my point still stands, for people that are offended by the naming of the child Messiah, the terms Jesus and Mary are not equivalents of the term Messiah. The comparison of "Jesus" and "Mary" to "Messiah" just isn't apt.

So, there isn't anything hypocritical, silly, or illogical about them taking offense at the naming of a child Messiah, while not taking offense at the naming of a child "Jesus" or "Mary".

Billy
 
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  #31  
Old 08-20-2013, 08:20 PM
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my point still stands
You never made a point to begin with. You arbitrarily chose one thing about the name "Messiah" in order to draw a distinction, and then arbitrarily declared that one factor to be the only one that mattered. Very narrow minded.
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So, there isn't anything hypocritical, silly, or illogical about them taking offense at the naming of a child Messiah, while not taking offense at the naming of a child "Jesus" or "Mary".
It appears like you are attempting to dishonestly imply via innuendo that I accused them of being "hypocritical, silly, and illogical." I never said anybody was hypocritical, silly, and illogical, and if I was going to accuse somebody of being something illogical, etc., it would be somebody in this general vicinity.
 
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  #32  
Old 08-20-2013, 09:49 PM
imbilly imbilly is offline
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Hey John,

Quote:
You never made a point to begin with
I think it's rather clear that I made a point. If I hadn't it would beg the question as to what exactly you've been responding to.

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You arbitrarily chose one thing about the name "Messiah" in order to draw a distinction, and then arbitrarily declared that one factor to be the only one that mattered.
I think you're confused about what the word "arbitrairly" means, but I'm sure it sounded nice in your head when you were typing it. As far as declaring that one fact to be the only one that mattered . . . that's just untrue.

Quote:
Very narrow minded.
Yeah John, I'm clearly narrow minded.

Quote:
It appears like you are attempting to dishonestly imply via innuendo that I accused them of being "hypocritical, silly, and illogical." I never said anybody was hypocritical, silly, and illogical . . .
For my part, there wasn't any innuendo involved. If you're looking for innuendo read your own comment

Quote:
Jesus and Maria seem to be pretty popular south of the border and I don't see any problem with it.
This isn't a positive or even neutral statement about the thought process that is offended by the naming of a child "Messiah" but isn't offended by the names "Jesus" or "Maria" The rather obvious innuendo/implication in your comment is that the thought process doen't make sense or that it's flawed in some way. May or may not have been your intention, but it is the plain meaning of the sentence.

Quote:
if I was going to accuse somebody of being something illogical, etc., it would be somebody in this general vicinity.
And I suppose if I said you'd called me illogical and etc you'd deny it? Well I guess strictly speaking you didn't. Seems to me like you're the one hiding behind innuendo, John.

Billy
 
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  #33  
Old 08-21-2013, 12:22 AM
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I think it's rather clear that I made a point.
Is English not your first language? In English, we draw a distinction between simply asserting something (like you've done) and actually making a point (which is an assertion backed up by cogent argument).
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If I hadn't it would beg the question as to what exactly you've been responding to.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question

You are misusing the phrase, "beg the question." Not to worry - many, many people do.

I've kind of reached the conclusion that you aren't actually interested in actual intelligent conversation, so I'll let you carry on with your nonsense unmolested.

Cheers
 
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  #34  
Old 08-21-2013, 03:50 AM
imbilly imbilly is offline
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You need a hanky, John?
 
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  #35  
Old 08-21-2013, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Cricket View Post
There will always be disagreements and fusses between members. It is simply human nature. We truly encourage members to discuss and openly share their thoughts on a topic. It is how we all learn and life would be pretty boring if we all felt the same way.

That being said, this is not grade school. We don't gang up in little groups to take sides or encourage others to do the same.

If you were at a local get together and got into a disagreement with someone, I am guessing you would take it outside instead of ruining the party for everyone. I expect the same here.

If you are not able to discuss a topic respectfully then you need to remove yourself from the topic. If you are unable to discuss a topic with a specific member then you need to choose to ignore that member or take the discussion off the boards. If you are unable to do either of these things, I will help you to do so.

I truly adore this community and the people in it. Many of you I have known for a number of years but I am not your babysitter and I have absolutely no desire to moderate your fusses.

Now, let's move on...


C'mon y'all. Let's debate the issue rather than each other.

The topic involves if the judge has the legal standing to change this child's name.
 
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  #36  
Old 08-21-2013, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Cricket View Post
C'mon y'all. Let's debate the issue rather than each other.

The topic involves if the judge has the legal standing to change this child's name.
Oh I see! There is always one person that has to come in here and try to spoil it for everyone else with their viewpoints!

Well I for one have had enough and if you want to take it outside Cricket, you know where to find me!!!
Finishing my beer under the table!
 
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  #37  
Old 08-21-2013, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by G10 View Post
Oh I see! There is always one person that has to come in here and try to spoil it for everyone else with their viewpoints!

Well I for one have had enough and if you want to take it outside Cricket, you know where to find me!!!
Finishing my beer under the table!
Ha! Bring it on little boy.
 
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  #38  
Old 08-21-2013, 04:34 PM
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I'm sure they'll win on appeal, but that kid's gonna have problems his whole life with that name. Soon as he gets big enough to do it he will probably slap both of his parents. It'd be hard to blame him.
 
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  #39  
Old 08-29-2013, 06:21 PM
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I definitely think it's irresponsible to give a child such a name for many of the reasons already mentioned. I also agree the judge definitely crossed the line and the judgement will not stand. This is still "supposed" to be a free country.
 
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  #40  
Old 09-04-2013, 02:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Belinda View Post
I thought judges were suppose to base their decisions using the 'Law' not their religious beliefs or any other beliefs for that matter, social or otherwise.
I agree, the judge legally cannot make this type of decision but I also think that parents are going way out there these days to find ridiculous names for their kids. I mean how is this kid suppose to feel growing up with a name like that. It's just silly really.
 
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