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  #21  
Old 09-24-2011, 11:29 PM
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I'd like to clarify my earlier opinion the US can wage and would win a war with Pakistan.
I have no ill will towards the Pakistani people. I was simply answering the question posed and believe the US would fairly quickly establish delta superiority over Pakistan's airspace.
 
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  #22  
Old 09-25-2011, 12:30 AM
cola2929 cola2929 is offline
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With Afghanistan invasion America successfully prevented any more attacks like 9/11 to happen till now. If that was the only purpose of this war then yes they may have been successful.
America probably won't start a direct strike against pakistan army and pakistani people at this time like they were throwing bombs at Baghdad and Kadul. Its all just hype created by stupid media agencies. I was just making the point that if they are planning this it wouldn't be as easy for them as it was in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Pakistan has a lot more threats from inside than from outside. Corruption, Religious extremism, bad governance to name a few.
A lot more is happening in Pakistan. I was watching the news and today Gen Kayani has called upon meeting with senior army officials.(they don't ussually work on sunday). Maybe they are discussing what they will do in case of an american attack or maybe they are planning to take over the govt. again. Something will surely happen in the coming days.

One thing is interesting though that in Pakistan ISI backed journalists and politicians saverely oppose the drone attacks which mostly kill known terrorists. About 1500(more than half of them were known terrorists and wanna be suicide bombers) have so far died in drone attacks whereas about 35000 innocent pakistanis have so far died in suicide attacks. Same politicians and journos who are very saverely opposing American drone attacks all the time they aren't half as harsh about suicide bombers who only kill innocent people at shopping malls schools govt officials and army people.
 
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  #23  
Old 09-25-2011, 07:56 AM
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Quote:
A lot more is happening in Pakistan. I was watching the news and today Gen Kayani has called upon meeting with senior army officials.(they don't ussually work on sunday). Maybe they are discussing what they will do in case of an american attack or maybe they are planning to take over the govt. again. Something will surely happen in the coming days.
Based on today's news, maybe they're meeting to discuss the inherent threat to the nation posed by childrens spelling errors.

Sept 25, 2011 :Girl Accused of Blasphemy for Spelling Error
Quote:
ABBOTTABAD:*
It may have been a mere misplaced dot that led to accusations of blasphemy against a Christian eighth-grader, whose miniscule error led to her expulsion from school and uproar amongst local religious leaders.

Faryal Bhatti, a student at the Sir Syed Girls High School in Pakistan Ordnance Factories (POF) colony Havelian, erroneously misspelt a word in an Urdu exam while answering a question on a poem written in praise of the Holy Prophet (PBUH). The word in question was ‘laanat’ instead of ‘naat’ – an easy error for a child to make, as the written versions of the words are similar.

According to the school administration and religious leaders who took great exception to the hapless student’s mistake, the error is ‘serious’ enough to fall within the realm of blasphemy, Saturday.

Spelling out her punishment
On Thursday, Faryal’s Urdu teacher was collecting the answer sheets from her students when she noticed the apparently offensive word on her pupil’s sheet. The teacher, Fareeda Bibi, reportedly summoned the Christian girl, scolded her and beat her. Her punishment, however, did not end here. When Faryal’s class fellows learnt of the alleged blasphemy, the teacher brought the principal’s notice to the matter, who further informed the school management.

In the meanwhile, the news spread throughout the colony. The next day, male students of the POF colony school as well as certain religious elements took out a rally, demanding the registration of a criminal case against the eighth-grader and her expulsion from the area.

Prayer leaders within the community also condemned the incident in their Friday sermons, asking the colony’s administration to not only take action against Faryal but her entire family. In the wake of the increasing tensions, Managing Director POF Colony Havelian Asif Siddiki called a meeting of colony-based ulemas and school teachers to discuss the situation. The girl and her mother were asked to appear before the meeting, where they explained that it was a mere error, caused by a resemblance between the two words. The two immediately apologised, adding that Faryal had no malicious intentions.

In a move that was apparently meant to pacify the religious elements clamouring for action against the teenage ‘blasphemer’, the POF administration expelled her from the school on Saturday. Faryal was not the only one who got in trouble for her spelling error, however, as her mother, Sarafeen Bhatti, who was a staff nurse at the POF Hospital Havelian for several years, was immediately transferred to POF Wah Cantonment Hospital.
Continued at http://tribune.com.pk/story/259907/g...pelling-error/

Don't get me wrong, I think literacy is important...
... but when a girl makes a spelling error... Beating her and expelling her from school and her family from the community might be harsh. Maybe next time they oughta deduct 10 points from the paper's grade and call it a day.

When that section of the world decides which century it's in, diplomacy will become a more realistic prospect. Impossible to have meaningful negotiation with countries locked in a death struggle between those that want to be responsible members of the world community and those boldly trying to drag everyone that's willing and anyone that isn't back into the joy that was the middle ages.

Last edited by robjones; 09-25-2011 at 08:22 AM.
 
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  #24  
Old 09-25-2011, 08:25 AM
cola2929 cola2929 is offline
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As I said religious extremism is a problem of Pakistan and it has many faces. I am not in favor of blasphemy laws. I think people should learn to respect other people's believes all by themselves. We don't need laws for this. This is probably a case of prejudice towards a minority.
BTW what's your point? I was just stating the facts about American failure in Afghanistan. I know you don't like me saying this but lets face it after spending all that money American army has failed and now you don't have any money to continue this war. You guys are trying to get out of this hell called Afghanistan but you can't. Its an embarrasment. You don't have to get all worked up on this. Learn to face the realities.
You can go ahead and dig a hundred more such cases in all muslim countries and post here if you want. But it would be better if you could discuss the topic of the thread.
 
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  #25  
Old 09-25-2011, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by boblord666 View Post
Are you naive enough to agree with a war with another country based on conjecture and politicians playing politics.
I prefer that there be no wars at all. But should the occasion arise where one is necessary, there should be no pussy footing around. Use over whelming force to crush the enemy quickly.
 
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  #26  
Old 09-25-2011, 08:57 AM
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Quote:
http://my.earthlink.net/article/top?...a-0b5b0287a479

Pakistan's leaders have shown no indication that they plan to act on renewed American demands to attack the Haqqani network in its main base in Pakistan,
even at the risk of further conflict with Washington. The U.S. has given Pakistan billions of dollars in military and economic aid.
Quote:
cola: American army has failed and now you don't have any money to continue this war.
The Afghanistan "war" is one the US will continue to support and fund without a burden to its Treasury.

The Iraqi war should never have happened and the Obama Administration is mistaken to spend a penny more on such a meaningless cause - is the confusion some people make when making conclusions about American resolve in the Middle East.

I think robjones makes a good point why the US should remain in Afghanistan, to educate the region to an understanding there are other values in life than strict adherence to draconian misrepresentation of religious beliefs and free the people from oppressive religious doctrine.

Afterall what is terrorism? Not just those who bomb New York but those who terrorize their own citizens and given a chance to confront "legitimate" segments of societies that are abusive is also part and parcel the war on Terror.

The Pakistani's response in support of the Haqqani network is an example of determining those who are the enemy and the DOD will take appropriate steps in response.
 
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  #27  
Old 09-25-2011, 09:36 AM
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Cola - I was discussing the topic, and even agreeing with one of your points... Religious extremism is a huge part of the problem. As for digging up an examples, it was just to show a sample of why a blurred line between civil government and religious rulers is dangerous when it isn't just sad. Sure, there are plenty of other examples, and as long as there are enough then the plural of "anecdotal evidence" is "data".

Since you ask what my point was, i'll try and state it more clearly. Negotiating with a country whose leadership is split between secular factions that want to interact with the world on a peer basis and a hodgepodge of religious factions, some of which want to either shut the world out entirely or go forth to convert it at sword point (depending on which is speaking)... Impossible to do it in any meaningful fashion.

Why? Because if the guys on one side don't agree amongst themselves, and literally hold opposing definitions of what they want, there's no resolution that could possibly be acceptable.

A similar situation existed in Asia in the late 1800s when the western world and japan were starting to talk and there was factional dissension within japan between those who wanted to deal with the west and those that wanted to avoid western influence. Religious beliefs were a consideration then too, as the political leadership at the time was a confused combination of secular leaders and the divine emperor. The resolution came when japan had a civil war between the secularized leaders and the samurai.

A repeat instance... In the early 1900s, expanding western influence in china resulted in a conflict known as the Boxer Rebellion.

Basically it's a situation that repeats itself whenever western culture, which has evolved into a secular being, collides with a government that is insular and xenophobic, wishing to avoid the potential of their "pure" religious culture being exposed to the evils perceived in secular western ideas.

This is the 21st century. Anyone with a history book knows how this ends. Countries governed by religion eventually won't be. Until that happens they remain poor and backward. THAT is the reality that needs to be faced. A religion led government will as always desperately cling to the past and their people will suffer until an internal conflict settles on a secular government that can carry the country forward instead of explain that things were so much better before the steam engine came along and ruined things.

The closest thing to an exception are a few Arab countless that have such vast mineral resources the "poor" part may not be as prevalent, but many of those still now pay only lip service to being run based on religious precepts and just use religion to mollify the masses. The leaders themselves are secular and could as easily be confused with corporate execs.

History tells us government led by religion is not a model that will hold up and flourish. Pakistans problem is NOT the US... Their problem is that they haven't clearly decided whether the government is to be run by secular or religious leadership, and even within the religious side... Which one. Conflicts between Sunni and Shia are as deadly as those between Muslim and Hindu or Muslims and Jews, etc....

As long as it remains against the law to hold the wrong religious views, Pakistan will be in turmoil both internally and in their dealings with the west. We can't fix that. That's your problem. Ours is trying to deal with an ally that has elements within that are not truly allies.

Last edited by robjones; 09-25-2011 at 10:03 AM.
 
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  #28  
Old 09-25-2011, 05:37 PM
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Some musings:

The Tribune article:

It really is a bit hard to classify it as a spelling error.

Laanat is a curse (Damn) -

Naat means a poetry that specifically praises the Islamic prophet Muhammad. Although the words look similar to western eyes they are obviously majorly different in Urdu. The words are as different as they could possibly be. More a case of silly young girl being mischievous without knowing the consequences. The fact that she received a smack from an authority figure would please certain sections of all societies.

The Haqqani terrorist network:

Extracted from a Indian paper

"They are the Sopranos of the Afghanistan war, a ruthless crime family that built an empire out of kidnapping, extortion, smuggling, even trucking. They have trafficked in precious gems, stolen lumber and demanded protection money from businesses building roads and schools with American reconstruction funds.

They safeguard their mountainous turf by planting deadly roadside bombs and shelling remote American military bases. And they are accused by American officials of being guns for hire: a proxy force used by the Pakistani intelligence service to carry out grisly, high-profile attacks in Kabul and throughout the country.

Today, American intelligence and military officials call the crime clan known as the Haqqani network — led by a wizened militant named Jalaluddin Haqqani who has allied himself over the years with the CIA, Saudi Arabia’s spy service and Osama bin Laden — the most deadly insurgent group in Afghanistan. In the latest of a series of ever bolder strikes, the group staged a daylong assault on the US Embassy in Kabul, an attack Adm Mike Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, charged Thursday was aided by Pakistan’s military spy agency, ISI. According to two American officials, cellphones used by the attackers made calls to suspected ISI operatives before the attack, although top Pakistani officials deny their government played any role. "

Yep, Pakistan's equivalent of the CIA and Afghani's most experienced warlords can't get their hands on untraceable mobiles when plotting an invasion of a US Embassy - dumbos.

Diversity


Australia's Prime Minister is an atheist and we have supporters of every religion in the world living here with their different views. Generally without any problems. Australia at the moment has a government that is supported by less than 30% of the people. We'll look after that ourselves thanks.

Diplomacy

I'm not convinced that bombing countries that are allies without permission is a sure fire way to win their support. Maybe working together to counteract a common problem would be the way to go.

Living in Pakistan


I'm very pleased that I had the great fortune to be born where I am. I wish you all the best and hope the Paki people navigate their way successfully through life.
 
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  #29  
Old 09-26-2011, 12:57 PM
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I don't feel that we're in any position to get into another fight or war. I don't see it happening as he's one not to fight and wants our troops back home.

As to the comment about 750,000 troops. Iraq was one of the strongest, if not the strongest military in the region and it took less than 2 weeks to end that. IF we were attacked by someone like Pakistan and we had no choice but war, Pakistan wouldn't stand a chance. Now as to the Nuclear Weapons, do you think that Pakistan would be willing to have their entire country wiped out by nukes? I think they would look to fight on the ground and in the air and a lack of superior air force would decimate them. If they're not willing to fight India, then I doubt they'd be willing to sucker punch the biggest schoolyard kid.
 
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  #30  
Old 09-26-2011, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Sunfyre7896 View Post
As to the comment about 750,000 troops. Iraq was one of the strongest, if not the strongest military in the region and it took less than 2 weeks to end that. IF we were attacked by someone like Pakistan and we had no choice but war, Pakistan wouldn't stand a chance. Now as to the Nuclear Weapons, do you think that Pakistan would be willing to have their entire country wiped out by nukes? I think they would look to fight on the ground and in the air and a lack of superior air force would decimate them. If they're not willing to fight India, then I doubt they'd be willing to sucker punch the biggest schoolyard kid.
I don't think we should compare Pakistan with Iraq. I mean what do you call someone who doesn't have weapons of mass destruction but still keeps threatening their neighbors and biggest schoolyard kid and pretends that they have them. That's what Saddam Hussain did.
Many people in my country(including this man) think that suicide blasts in our country can easily stop if we stop siding with America. They do have a logic. Read this carefully. They say that the guys killing our people in suicide blasts are killing us because they think Pak army has sided with the bad guys which is America and so the security forces deserve to die. Because the Pakistani people aren't raising their voice against this so the people deserve to die too. This is Jihad for them. We can easily stop these suicide blasts and save our people's lives if we step out of American war.
 
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  #31  
Old 09-26-2011, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by cola2929;1756510Many people in my country(including [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imran_Khan"
this man[/URL]) think that suicide blasts in our country can easily stop if we stop siding with America. They do have a logic. Read this carefully. They say that the guys killing our people in suicide blasts are killing us because they think Pak army has sided with the bad guys which is America and so the security forces deserve to die. Because the Pakistani people aren't raising their voice against this so the people deserve to die too. This is Jihad for them. We can easily stop these suicide blasts and save our people's lives if we step out of American war.
Actually what you're saying pretty much dovetails with what I stated about the internal conflict between those facing west and those that wish to rule their country by ancient religious precepts precluding meaningful discourse with the west.

From what I've seen of his interviews (not a lot so far), khan has some valid points. He states a lot of things nobody wants to acknowledge, like the fact that the billions in foreign aid from the west doesn't do squat for the normal people in the country and enslaved the leadership. His recommendation aside from saying PK needs to handle their internal conflict internally is that PK needs to cut themselves off or at minimum drastically slash their reliance on foreign aide.
http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/2199...khan-us-uk.htm
Quote:
Khan has long complained that U.S. military involvement in Pakistan to root out militants was “totally counter-productive” and has only caused more death and violence in the country.

Last May, after U.S. commandoes killed Osama bin Laden in a compound in northern Pakistan, Khan told the Sydney Morning Herald newspaper of Australia: "The biggest lesson to learn [from the raid] is that Pakistan should stand on its own feet, say no to aid and be a sovereign country. Our government policies have been dictated by aid, they have enslaved us by aid."

Khan added: "The worst is that we have completely lost our credibility and we are so vulnerable. As we have been accused of harboring the world's biggest terrorist that means any act of terrorism that takes place anywhere, all fingers will be pointing at Pakistan … the country stands terribly exposed. We could end up paying an even higher price than we have already paid."
He has some valid arguments. I can see why he'd be an ex-leader... Seems to have some common sense and is willing to say his position notwithstanding wether it's popular or not. I doubt turning off aid is an idea that was universally popular with the countrys bureaucrats and political types. Those tend to have certain universal characteristics regardless of national origin.
 
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