CSS & The Masses

mortgage-pro-seo · 09-07-2004, 11:13 AM

Is designing table-less sites ready for the masses? I am looking to redesign a couple of my sites. I am wondering if I should totally abandon the tables?

**John Scott** · 09-07-2004, 11:23 AM

I hear that doing everything w/o tables is the way of the future, but personally I don't know. As long as it renders fine in the majority of browsers, I'd think you're good to go. No?

Jazzee · 09-07-2004, 11:42 AM

If you abandon tables you have the huge advantage of completely redesigning your site using only css. That includes layout, colors, everything. I definitely recommend designing without tables.

Brian · 09-07-2004, 11:51 AM

http://www.mezzoblue.com/zengarden/alldesigns/

All those websites listed have the same code, just different css. The power of css is quite incredible.

Jazzee · 09-07-2004, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian

The power of css is quite incredible.

Agreed

Spiral · 09-07-2004, 12:06 PM

The only problem with tableless layouts is that certain browsers display the elements differently, and you can't really work around it. I find it easier and to use tables and css. But I'm sure theres a lot of css/standards nazis that would hate me for it.

randfish · 09-08-2004, 12:35 PM

Personally, I like using tables mixed with CSS. There are some elements that are so much simpler using tables and HTML was formulated with tables in mind.

I think it's highly unlikely that table support will ever be dropped or even dowgraded by browsers, so unless you're doing it to be 'Cool' or because you prefer it, it seems to be 6 of one and half a dozen of the other.

Jazzee · 09-08-2004, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by randfish

I think it's highly unlikely that table support will ever be dropped or even dowgraded by browsers, so unless you're doing it to be 'Cool' or because you prefer it, it seems to be 6 of one and half a dozen of the other.

Using tables gives you less control over layout. If I design a site with tables, then later decide I want to move the nav from the left to the right, I would have to change the table to do it. If I used no tables, I could easily move it from the left to the right by simply changing one css file.

So, you don't do it to be "cool", you do it to have more control over your sites.

se4b4ss · 09-08-2004, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jazzee

Using tables gives you less control over layout. If I design a site with tables, then later decide I want to move the nav from the left to the right, I would have to change the table to do it. If I used no tables, I could easily move it from the left to the right by simply changing one css file.

i accomplish this by using php includes on all my pages. like this:

template:
<?php include("header.html") ?>
<p>content</p>
<?php include("footer.html") ?>

this way i can go back and change the table layout in my header file and the whole site is changed.

not to say that i don't appreciate what css can do...

regards,
steve

Jazzee · 09-08-2004, 02:29 PM

Yea, I think everyone uses includes for that. But what if you want to change the entire layout? You have to recode your entire table. With css, you don't have to.

Spiral · 09-08-2004, 02:30 PM

php includes are awesome. I use them for everything on my blogish e/n site.

I generally don't want to change elements of my page after I've launched it, I make all my changes before it is set in stone.

se4b4ss · 09-08-2004, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jazzee

But what if you want to change the entire layout? You have to recode your entire table. With css, you don't have to.

i don't think i've reached that point in the css learning curve yet.

but i certainly get your point.

regards,
steve

**LazyJim** · 09-08-2004, 04:45 PM

CSS = brilliant, but it's not 100% what I want.
CSS does some wonderfull automagical things, it's soo powerful, and there's more magic in the pipeline, yet I can't believe they missed most of the things that would enable the emmulation (and therefore replacement) of <table> layouts!

Ok so the

Code:

display: table|table-cell|table-row;

options are very helpfull but make u use extra <div>s etc, and of course not all browsers support it.

Which brings me to the biggest problem, MSIE, c'mon microsof u're dragging the web down!

So in answer to your question...
Is designing table-less sites ready for the masses?
Well the masses have been ready for a long time, but the browsers make it difficult. The answer is to invent layouts that don't need tables.

Fusion · 09-09-2004, 05:24 AM

Comfy slippers designer me.

**LazyJim** · 09-09-2004, 07:56 AM

I don't even wear slippers

Fusion · 09-09-2004, 08:52 AM

Where u been LJ?

Fusion · 09-09-2004, 08:53 AM

(.)(.)
LJ
\___/

edbarton · 09-09-2004, 09:41 AM

CSS layouts are cool and all, but sometimes they really make me tear my hair out, and after days of trying to get around browser rendering problems, I often just go back to the simple, tried and tested tables.

evilregis · 09-09-2004, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by edbarton

CSS layouts are cool and all, but sometimes they really make me tear my hair out, and after days of trying to get around browser rendering problems, I often just go back to the simple, tried and tested tables.

...but there was probably a time when you were learning to design with tables that you couldn't do a certain something or other. What'd you do? Sit down and figure out how to do it.

I remember, when I first started getting serious about web design, having to learn how to make the kick-ass-table-based-spliced-images designs. Doing that the first time and learning the intricacies of tables and how different browsers rendered them was not an easy thing. It took a lot of work. But it was worth it. As is learning CSS.

Not to say that you are wrong in your approach, because that is easy and in business time is money, but to fall back on tables and forget about the css is a bad solution. Finish that project that the deadline was on and then try and figure out how to do that thing using CSS.

It's all about baby steps... and that's how I learned how to do what I can do with CSS just the same.

Summation: It's worthwhile to learn. You'll be glad you did when you do.

edbarton · 09-09-2004, 12:43 PM

I didn't really have too many problems with tables, mainly because I learned through Dreamweaver, but with dreamweaver and CSS it is an entirely different story, due to crazy absolute positioning etc. and it just not being fun.

I always start projects with the intention of it being completed fully in CSS, and as often as possible, I will but if it does get timely, then I just have to go the table way, as I am confident that, the tables way can be successful in the time I have.

Also, in answer to your question, you are absolutely fine in using CSS for the masses, as there should be no problem, although using tables is hardly going to matter that much.